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Author: iwan
Date: 10-07-2006, 22:31

The last 16 years England has lost 5 times
in a penalty-shoot-out in a play-off at the
finaltournament!!

In 1990 in the WCT-semie-final against Germany.
In 1996 in the ECT-semie-final against Germany.
In 1998 in the WCT-1/8-th-final against Argentina.
In 2004 in the ECT-qarterfinal against Portugal
And now again in the WCT-quarterfinal against Portugal!!

But in England they've no expirience with penalties
than they've in otter countries!!!

In the FA-cup after a draw after 120 minutes, they don't do
a penalty-shoot-out but they hold a replay at the field
off the away-team.

In the promtion-play-offs after a ty in
2 matches(include away-goals) hte don't do a penalty-shoot-out
after the extra time in 2nd match but they hold
a 3rd match at a neutral field!!

The do a penalty-soot-out in the replay off a cupmatch ore
in the 3rd match off a promotion-play-off but not in
situations they do in otter european countries!!

They don't do a penalty-shoot-out in situations
otter countries do. And that can be a reason they've
no expirience than other countries and that can be a
reason they loose so many times in a penalty-shoot-out!!

Re: England and Penalty-shoot-out
Author: apw Date: 11-07-2006, 10:00	We did beat Spain Euro 96 Q/F On Penalties our only success

Author: badgerboy
Date: 11-07-2006, 11:33

Iwan

Just to correct you. There are penalties in the play-off matches (semi-finals) after the two matches if the scores are level - no third match. For the final it's a one off match - again decided on penalties if necessary. In addition there are no replays in the League Cup or in the FA Cup semi-finals or final.

Steven Gerrard didn't have any trouble finding the net in the FA Cup Final shootout but couldn't do it against Portugal.

I don't think more penalty shoot outs in the domestic game would help because the psychological pressures are somehow different and with any win on penalties there has to be an element of luck in any case.

Author: eldaec
Date: 11-07-2006, 11:44

It's more than an experience thing. There are individual clubs in England with an excellent penalty record. Liverpool in particular stand out (8 of 9 shootouts won or something equally stupid).

And FA cup games do have shootouts at the end of the 1st replay. Personally I'd prefer they went back to have an unlimited number of replays until someone wins - if the clubs don't want fixture congestion, just win the fricking game.

Also, in general I'd rather not infect more of the English games with this nonsense.

It's a shame the golden and silver goal experiments didn't work out - but FIFA, the IFAB, and the major confederations need to keep working on the problem of how to end these games.

Personally I'd run a number of 20 minute periods of extra time. First team to be ahead at the end of a period wins. Swap ends between each period. Allow up to 3 additional subs between periods (between periods not during the period), these additional subs can include subbing a player back on who has previously been subbed off. After 6 periods of extra time, then you can go to penalties if you must.

I am fully aware this won't ever happen because it would upset the TV schedules too much, but something has to change.

Author: esperant
Date: 11-07-2006, 14:07

Personally I'd run a number of 20 minute periods of extra time. First team to be ahead at the end of a period wins...

Wasn't that basically the Silver Goal? If you are ahead after a period of extra time then you win?

Oh, and with regards the penalty discussion, english teams do generaly fare better than the interational team but then look at Liverpool, how many English players actually get a game for them? Carragher, Gerrard? Thats why they win the penalty shoot-out!

Re: England and Penalty-shoot-out
Author: Giuseppe Date: 11-07-2006, 14:16	I don't think you can really make a rule regarding this penalty issue. Wasn't Italy one of those teams that never make it on penalties? That didn't stop them from winning the World Cup on pens.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 11-07-2006, 14:33

One of the ideas put forward in the past was to gradually reduce the number of players on either side during extra time. I'm surprised this hasn't been tried experimentally at least.

Another possible innovation (which I only thought of last night) would be to make it a true "squad" game and force both teams to substitute their entire first XI after 90 minutes. Obviously the squads would have to be a bit bigger to allow for this - at least 25, possibly 30 players. I'd probably play the normal 30 minutes of extra time with the full "second XI" with a further 30 minutes added if necessary - first 10 minutes 10 a side, then 9 and finally 8.

Re: England and Penalty-shoot-out
Author: exile Date: 11-07-2006, 14:42	During a fuel shortage in 1947, Scottish cup matches were played to a finish after the normal 90 minutes plus 30 minutes extra time. The Dundee-Aberdeen match was decided in the 129th minute - the Hibernian-Motherwell match lasted until the 142nd minute. They had tough players in those days!

Author: eldaec
Date: 11-07-2006, 16:46
Edited by: eldaec
at: 11-07-2006, 16:51

Someone mentioned silver goals, and suggested that having up to two hours of extra time in 20 min periods was like silver goals.

The problem with just 30minutes of silver goals is that they still encourage at least one side to play for penalties.

You need to get to a position where neither side believes waiting for penalties is a good plan. You also need to give both teams a way to have enough energy to have a chance of playing to win, but at the same time not disrupt play with continual subs (the only feasible way I can think of for that is extra subs, but only between periods)

Another alternative that would never happen (and wouldn't help in a final) is to say that if either side wins on penalties, that side starts a goal down in the next round.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 11-07-2006, 18:06

I think iwan may be onto something here! ! ! !

Historically FA Cup ties have had multiple replays. Penalty shootouts were only introduced in 1991* if the tie was not resolved after one replay plus extra time (the original tie does not have extra time).

Personally I think the replay does not now serve a useful purpose and the initial tie can have extra time, and if necessary penalties. This actually would be a pressure situation (of sorts) which international players would become familiar with, which even daily penalties within the overall training plan cannot simulate.

*But the very first penalty shootout in an FA Cup 'match' came in the third/fourth playoff of 1972. This match had been held over from the previous season and was a not very thrilling 0-0 draw on 5 August.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 11-07-2006, 18:22
Edited by: ignjat63
at: 11-07-2006, 18:22

During the WC there were lots of coaches giving their oppinions on penalty shootouts (among other thing of course) and some had periodical columns in daily papers. And I was amazed that some of them said things that to me seem obviously contradictory - that penalty shootouts are "lottery" and on the other hand "mentaly more stable team wins". Some pundits. Anyway, I agree with those who say "more stable team wins".

Question. What do you think. Is it pure luck, or mental stability or perhaps both? Maybe I miss something.

Author: conscious
Date: 11-07-2006, 19:52

I wonder what the knockout matches would look like if the penalty shootouts were abandoned and replaced by infinite extra time + golden goal. (Something like the NHL format.) With these rules, teams would have no motivation to play for penalties and would be able to win ONLY by scoring a goal.

Sure, that would make some matches very very long... And no additional substitutions please, so that the players become more tired (maybe goalkeepers fall asleep...)

Re: England and Penalty-shoot-out
Author: jonyw71 Date: 11-07-2006, 21:14	Look at the table at the bottom of this Wikipedia page:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_shootout_%28football%29 from a purely biased english point of view, it would surely be better to toss a coin! Or if we wanted to increase TV money, best of 10 coin tosses. ANYTHING but penalties.

Author: esperant
Date: 11-07-2006, 23:40

@eldaec

Sorry, I misread your post a bit. I agree, silver goal without a penalty shootout for at least a good few periods would definitely make attacking a much better option than sitting back.

However, someone followed up by saying no penalties and keep playing silver goal until someone wins. It might be exciting, but with TV stations needing to show other programmes, and managers always moaning about players playing too much, it might not get off the ground. Hell of a dramatic match if it gets played through the early hours as well!

I think the final point was make whoever wins a penalty shootout start with a goal less...think thats a bit too much. Imagine if the game ended 40-40...both teams were obviously attacking, so cant be blamed for being negative. Shouldnt be punished for that.

Author: panda
Date: 12-07-2006, 15:05

On a previous thread I asked if there were stats about who wins a penalty shoot out. People posted that home advantage helps, ranking does not help. (Home advantage can only apply to hosts in WC, I guess.)

I don't know why England has such a bad record in shootouts, and Germans so good (people start to talk about mentality here). But Italy had a bad record in shootouts; they won this time.

I think it's often tempting to say that the team that has the psychological advantage by the time the penalty shoot-out arrives wins. But that's a more complicated thing than saying 'you play for penalties and if you hold out, you hold the psychological advantage' OR 'if you dominate the game, you'll have an advanatge in the shoo-out.'

Re: England and Penalty-shoot-out
Author: ignjat63 Date: 12-07-2006, 15:19	Let me rephrase my question. If penalties are all about luck, how come some teams are always lucky and some are always unlucky? Over several championships.

Author: iwan
Date: 12-07-2006, 20:49

Dear Jonyw,

Thank you very mutch about your information!!
But at that web-page has been suggested a
penalty-shoot-out after a draw
never has been exist before 1968
and that's not true!!!

In many countries many decades before 1968
the'd penalty-shoot-out after a draw in
their national cups!!

In Holland they'd started in 1934 with it and
in 1948 it was for the 1st time nessissary
in the finaly cupfinal!!

But can some-body tell me in wich country people
started with penalty-sootout in theire cups!?!?

And what was the 1st country who started with
it in the 20's ore 30's in their cup!?!?