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Author: Clifford
Date: 16-06-2006, 17:03

I am curious if FIFA change the goalscorers.
3rd goal: Rodriguez hit the post and deflected ball was sent to the net by touch of Serbian defender.
4rd goal: Clearly own goal by Serbian defender, Crespo didn't touch the ball.

The 4th goal is similar to Ronaldo's goal in group stage of WC2002 against Costa Rica. Ronaldo was announced as goalscorer, during the match it was changed to own goal, but after the match FIFA make decision that it was Ronaldo who scored the goal.

Author: executor
Date: 16-06-2006, 17:15

Life really SUCKS! Only 2 games I've missed so far at WC due to exams: Spain-Ukraine and Argentina-SCG....I tried to comfort myself thinking that Serbia will manage to block the attacks of the South-Americans and maybe the heat will cause the game to be slow. You can imagine the size of my eyes when I saw the scoreline! It's not fair

...The next game that I'll probably miss due to the same reason is Saudi Arabia-Ukraine...so that means there will be a lot of goals in this one...

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 16-06-2006, 17:26

Well ,the rules are not clear to me either. It seemed to me that by default, goals were credited to the strikers but when the ball was clearly off target (in this case it becomes a true own goal).

Typically, the English goal vs. Paraguay should have been given to Beckham, whereas FIFA decided that it would an own goal.

It doesn't matter really, but FIFA should try to be consistent for these rules.

Author: panda
Date: 16-06-2006, 17:26
Edited by: panda
at: 16-06-2006, 17:28

fifa decide pretty quick, though. Beckham 'goal' against paraguay stayed an own goal.

@executor - I know how you feel these are the SAME 2 matches I have missed (though I have 2nd half of Arg-Scg taped so I can see that at least. Highlights programmes here are rubbish- unless england match you simply don't get enough footage to see how good the teams are.

@lyonnais - true- I remember reading - in case of doubt, goal goes to attacking player, BUT at the time opinion was divided if the Beckham kick would have gone in without deflection.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 16-06-2006, 17:33

I heard Petković's statement after this match. From what he said it seams that he believed before the matches, that the Dutch and Argentinians were so much better than SCG, that he should have decided for total defensive tactics hoping to get 2 points and then 3 from IC match. Then he would hope that 5 points were enough to get us through.

He said his biggest mistake is that he actually played too openly.

Author: cska
Date: 16-06-2006, 18:19

Well, Ignjat, if SCG played less openly (like Petkovic might have wanted), this does not prevent them from conceding a goal - the goal of Holland is irrespective to open or closed play. And after 0-1 a team must play openly, otherwise 0-1 is enough for their opponents.
By the way, SCG really stopped playing (either in open or closed way) after 0-1 in 6th minute. And Mateja Kezman was very irresponsible to leave his teammates 10 on the pitch at 0-3. The ref warned him several times, but he didn't comply to the warnings.
Once the thing in SCG are settled and S and CG become distinct states, maybe life in general and football will improve. Good luck in EC qualifiers.

Re: 3rd a 4th goals of Argentina. own goals?
Author: ignjat63 Date: 16-06-2006, 18:28 Edited by: ignjat63 at: 16-06-2006, 18:28	I know cska, I did not say I agree with Petkovic. I hope you notice the important part of his statement. He does not believe in the team he leads. With that, we did not stand a chance. Ericsson, for example, believed in Crouch despite many critics and it payed in the end. There are no words to express my disgust and contempt at the coach who does not believe in his players.

Author: cska
Date: 16-06-2006, 18:48

Ignjat, I understand you quite well. It was the same with Bulgaria on EC'04. Plamen Markov, the coach, was very cowardly and he left other people to influence him, because he didn't believe in his own leadership. And Sweden beat us 5-0.
Seeing how Trinidad draws 0-0 versus the same Sweden, I am really happy that Bulgaria is not there - it would be a shame to see disastrous defeats again.
Now Stoichkov is the coach - he believes in himself and he believes in the team. However, he is a genious as a player, but has no coaching skills. We have a proverb: "You can't make a flute from any woodpiece."

Author: cska
Date: 16-06-2006, 18:54

And, by the way, as far as I know goalscorers are determined on the basis of last attacker touching the ball and really influencing its path (i.e., just slight touches don't count if the ball proceeds in its original direction). An own goal is given when the ball is touched by a defender and he significantly changes its direction, but not as a result of impossibility to move out after a shot by attacker. If a defender kicks the ball after it hits the post, it's an own goal. But if a defender stands and cannot avoid touching the ball after a speedy shot hitting the post, then it's a goal of the striker.
It's the same with penalties. The new instruction of FIFA is that when the ball is kicked towards the goal and hits the hand of a defender, then what decides penalty or not is whether the defender had his hands in "natural" position (whatever "natural" is according to FIFA) and whether he could have avoided touching the ball. Deliberate or unintended actions of defenders no longer decide whether it's a penalty.

Author: executor
Date: 16-06-2006, 19:04
Edited by: executor
at: 16-06-2006, 19:05

{i> But if a defender stands and cannot avoid touching the ball after a speedy shot hitting the post, then it's a goal of the striker. {/i>

Allow me to disagree. An own goal should be consider if the deflection of a defender transforms an otherwise off-target shot into a goal. If the ball hits the post and returns to the field, it should bounce anywhere in the box. If a defender makes it enter the goal it's an own goal. Lack of awareness isn't an excuse.

In other words: "If the defender would not have been in that place, it would not have been a goal"

Author: panda
Date: 16-06-2006, 19:09

re: SCG

Well, looking at so much criticism of the national side in england, I suddenly had the thought it is something like this.

The national team is like the fans' child. But just as when a real child is doing something away from the parents, parents cannot influence the performance of the child - just worry. So in newspapers, on TV and radio, in forums, we all worry.

You could also say, manager is like a nanny or a babysitter (sometimes, we can be suspicious of foreign manager). We are quick to distrust this nanny to whom we have given our child.

Being national manager is very different from club manager, though. when Benitez got Crouch, we could say- OK, we give him a season to show if it he is right- and he can also be 80% right, or 60% whatever. In case of Eriksson and Crouch, or Eriksson and anyone- he can make whatever decisions he likes, if team wins, he was right, if team loses, he is immediately wrong- there is not the 30+ games to play percentages on a decision.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 16-06-2006, 19:25
Edited by: ignjat63
at: 16-06-2006, 22:20

When we see our players playing with such a low spirit as today, we often talk of "national mentality characteristics" reflecting in football. But I remember the kind of German-like mentality our hand-ballers had in the 80s, our basketball players had in the 70s-90s, our waterpolo players even now, and I think there is only mentality of losers and winners in sports. Our football players (coach included) simply had losers' mentality. They believed they would lose no matter what they tried to do. So they tried nothing. I only wonder where is their pride as players and professionals. How is it that they do not seem to care that it is not the same if you lose bravely (like Ghana against Italy) or if they lose like a bunch of cowards. I really do not understand that kind of attitude.

Re: 3rd a 4th goals of Argentina. own goals?
Author: executor Date: 16-06-2006, 20:17	Well, since we are talking about own-goals...and we all know how much fun they are ...here is a selection of them. Just for fun. The neatest is at 03:30 while the last is a master-piece: scored from the opposing half! Enjoy! {a href="http://www.gsp.ro/index.php?a=44023&shift=1"> link {/a> P.S. one of them is not an og, but just an awkward attempt to clear the ball. See if you can spot it.

Re: 3rd a 4th goals of Argentina. own goals?
Author: ignjat63 Date: 16-06-2006, 20:35	Is it the one between 3 40 and 3 50?

Re: 3rd a 4th goals of Argentina. own goals?
Author: executor Date: 16-06-2006, 20:54	No it's the one between 4:10 and 4:20. BTW you were speaking of Serbian basketball. Just saw the images of Crvena Zvezda-Partizan . I guess passion matches value, right?

Re: 3rd a 4th goals of Argentina. own goals?
Author: ignjat63 Date: 16-06-2006, 21:04	Passion certainly did not match value in this case. Anyway, I was talking about basketball in previous decades. Unfortunatelly, our basketball is downhill now.

Author: cska
Date: 17-06-2006, 09:37

@executor
As we started talking about own goals. If the ball bounces from the post and hits a defender in a way he cannot do anything to avoid it, then it's a goal, no matter that the ball would otherwise go into the penalty box instead of goal. Here it's the striker's speedy shot that caused the ball to hit the defender in unavoidable way. By the way, there were many cases in which the ball deflected off the post or bar and hit the keeper. But always goals were announced in these cases, not own goals.