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Author: Francisco
Date: 09-06-2006, 16:38

Does anyone know why/when FIFA changed the rules for the group stage?

These are the new rules:

The ranking of each team in each group will be determined as
follows:
a) greatest number of points obtained in all group matches;
b) goal difference in all group matches;
c) greatest number of goals scored in all group matches.
If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above three criteria,
their rankings will be determined as follows:
d) greatest number of points obtained in the group matches between
the teams concerned;
e) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the
teams concerned;
f) greater number of goals scored in all group matches between the
teams concerned;
g) drawing of lots by the Organising Committee for the FIFA World
Cup™.

But a till a few months ago the rules were: d, e, f, a, b, c, g!!!
Plus till a few months ago the file in FIFA World Cup site had 24 pages but now has 60 pages (although the link still refers the 24 page-file) (http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/w/doc.html)

I had a lot of work doing an excel file with the "old" rules and now it's the "simpler" rules that are valid (it's a lot easier now to do one... but still I had so much work and now is canned)

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Aegis Date: 09-06-2006, 17:12	Errr ... Are you sure it has changed ? As far as I remember, pts/gd/goals scored were always the first criterias in the World Cup ? Are you sure you are not confusing with the Champions League rules were head to head results come ahead of the goal difference ?

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 09-06-2006, 17:34 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 09-06-2006, 17:40	@Aegis You are right that this are the same rules as in the World Cups untill now. But I also have regulations on my computer that I downloaden from the FIFA-site in 2004 in which head-to-head is listed before goal-difference. I have put the regulations "from 2004" on my site: See page 33

Author: Francisco
Date: 09-06-2006, 20:03

Uff!

Thank you Forza for having the old file! I was thinking that 2 years ago I had read that wrong (at the time I had printed those rules + the games map, but have since lost sense of where I have them) and that I had understood them wrong...

At least now I'm not feeling bad about what I did then...BUT I still don't know why they changed the rules this year... (I'm sure that in December/January the rules were the "old" ones)

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for W
Author: salina Date: 09-06-2006, 20:24	And why are the rules different from those in the qualification? Angola qualified for WC because of the direct matches against Nigeria when both had the same number of points - but Nigeria had the better goal difference.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 09-06-2006, 21:31

FIFA seem interested in goals, goals and more goals - that's why they've introduced a beachball to replace the football previously used.
If there is a 3-way tie, say involving Sweden, England and Paraguay with each beating one and losing to the other member of that trio and all beating Trinidad & Tobago, then Paraguay would have the incentive of making a cricket score against T'n'T. Moreover, realising that possible scenario, sweden and England would also be looking to win well, rather than secure a winning position and then give a few squad members a run out.
Even so, I suspect Eriksson's Plan A will involve bringing Rooney on at some stage in the second half against Trini provided England are 2 or preferably 3 ahead, and then rest him against Sweden unless England need rescuing in the second half.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for W
Author: iwan Date: 09-06-2006, 23:09	Yes, I find a,b,c,d,e,f (what they allways did between 1930 and 2002) more logic than d,e,f,a,b,c, but people don't want that!! I prefair it to re-introduce the system they've had many decades, a,b,c,d,e,f!!

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for W
Author: salina Date: 09-06-2006, 23:34	Now we have different systems for the Worldcup and the Euro 2008...

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for W
Author: iwan Date: 10-06-2006, 00:07	Dear Salena, Do you mean they'll do at the ECT in '08 they'll give the goal-difference an higher priority than the competating matches!?!? At witch webbpage did you read that!!?

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 10-06-2006, 11:58	@iwan No, at Euro 2008 they have head-to-head first and then goal difference. Just as they had in 2004. You can find the regulations here (page 6-9).

Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-06-2006, 12:00

Iwan

I think maybe you didn't read the thread from the beginning. It says that FIFA ARE using a,b,c,d,e,f.

For Euro 2008 qualification I think they will use d,e,f,a,b,c.

And salina - I can see why the rules might be different in qualification as there tend to be a lot more weaker teams at that stage. In Europe, for example, you don't want qualification decided by how many goals you can score against Liechtenstein and Malta. But in the finals there shouldn't (in theory anyway) be any VERY weak teams.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 10-06-2006, 12:15
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 10-06-2006, 12:24

@badgerboy
For Euro 2008 qualification I think they will use d,e,f,a,b,c.

You have a slight mistake. a(points in all matches) will still be first off course.

So WC 2006: a, b, c, d, e, f
Euro 2008: a, d, e, f, b, c

And in qualifying for Euro 2008 also away goals are included after f and after c, so it will be:

1. points in all matches
2. points in head-to-head
3. goal difference in head-to-head
4. goals scored in head-to-head
5. away goals in head-to-head (only qualifying)
(2. to 5. will be repeated if after 1. more teams are equal than after 5.; only qualifying)
6. goal difference in all matches
7. goals scored in all matches
8. away goals in all matches (only qualifying)
9. coefficient WC 2006 + Euro 2008 (only final tournament)
10. Fair play
11. lots

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: badgerboy Date: 10-06-2006, 12:26	ForzaAZ Thanks - I wasn't concentrating so hard on the letters (just lazily copying what came before without really reading)! But I am glad you mentioned the away goals. I very nearly posted a question to ask if they counted or not. I was a bit too lazy today to link to the instructions!

Author: isidromv
Date: 16-06-2006, 11:59
Edited by: isidromv
at: 16-06-2006, 11:59

Even I was a small child, I remember that head-to-head was first introduced after the qualification to EC'84, where Spain qualified due to a 12-1 victory over Malta in the last match.

I think head-to-head should be used in 2-leg group stages, like WC and EC qualifying.

But I do not like head-to-head in the EC or WC final tournamnet.
If you play only 3 games, you should try to do your best in all of them, not just relax with a 3-0 score against T'n'T because it doesn't matter how many goals you get (although it is not a good example, because T'n'T has proved that they are not so easy to beat).

Author: panda
Date: 16-06-2006, 12:56

With very weak teams and big groups, as in EC QG, head-to head gives more of a cup feel to the ties between teams competing for the Q spots. (Plus 2 games between the relevant sides means there are more chances for GD WITHIN HtH to be applied, like a domestic 2 leg cup tie)

I don't know what I feel about GD v HtH at finals; as the final WC group games will be soon, let's see if the alternative regulations would have made any difference.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for W
Author: conscious Date: 16-06-2006, 14:29	It was probably a good idea. Remember a group with Italy, Bulgaria, Sweden, and Denmark at Euro'04. With goal difference the first tiebreaker, Italians would have a chance to qualify, and Swedes and Danes wouldn't have that temptation to make it 2-2.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Francisco Date: 18-06-2006, 21:47	@conscious Actually in Euro2004 Italy would've been out either way! They won 2-1 against Bulgaria, but Sweden won 5-0 and the Danish 2-0, so Sweden and Denmark were already in front on that decider...

Author: badgerboy
Date: 19-06-2006, 11:50

Francisco

I guess conscious would answer that - if GD was the decider and not H to H, Italy would have had a reason to go for more goals against Bulgaria in their last match, knowing that a 3-0 win would qualify them. As it was they just had to win and hope.

Interestingly, if the Euro 2004 rules applied at this World Cup then a Swiss win over Togo today would have produced exactly the same scenario. A 2-2 draw between Switzerland and South Korea would have sent France home early. As it is a win by two or more goals against Togo should see France through.

For South Korea - despite their excitement at getting the draw last night - nothing much changes. They will almost certainly still have to beat Switzerland to qualify. I guess the only big advantage to last night's point is that (assuming Group H goes to form) they would avoid Spain in the last 16. In any case: Switzerland or South Korea v Ukraine or Tunisia (or Saudi Arabia?) in R2 would guarantee at least one "surprise" quarter-finalist.

Author: panda
Date: 19-06-2006, 18:04

To win the group, France must beat Togo by THREE or more goals and hope Sw and SK draw. Now Sw have better GD than SK, it is as you say, badge, SK have to go out and win to be sure of qualifying, which should make for a good game - the ones who run around for 90 mins with a high work-rate against the very organised defenders. A good group for the stats minded. Everyone's talking about the pressure on the French though. I don't imagine Togo will go down without a fight, even if it might be a fight between Adebayor and his own team-mates.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Lyonnais Date: 19-06-2006, 18:55	Panda, France "just" needs to win 2-0 if Switzeland and Korea make a draw (Korea just won 2-1 vs. Togo). A large score such as 3-2 or 4-3 might be sufficient too. If Switzerland and Korea do not tie, then France just needs a win whatever the score.

Author: panda
Date: 19-06-2006, 19:01

@lyonnais

I said 'to win the group' not just to progress.

If it is 2-0 and SK/CH is a draw then I presume it goes to goals scored for top place. If that ends up the same between F and Sw, e.g. F-T, SK- CH 2-0, 0-0 or 3-1, 1-1 is it drawing of lots?

If either SK or CH win, then F progress with any kind of win, but are second.

The 2nd in the group is likely to meet Spain, who we think we still be playing well, so good idea to try and win the group and get Ukr/Tun/Saudi. Is that correct?

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Lyonnais Date: 19-06-2006, 19:04	my mistake Panda I read too quickly. Yes, of course, it will be better to avoid Spain in the Last 16 but we are far away from doing such speculations now. Let's win first by 2-goal difference and make sure that we advance. This is not granted yet.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: executor Date: 19-06-2006, 19:04	France-Togo 2-1 Switzerland-South Korea 0-0 Switzerland wins the group and we'll need lots to decide who will go through between France and SK France-Togo 2-0 Sw-SK 1-1 France and Sw go though but, again, we need lots to decide who wins the group. It will be the most interesting group!!

Author: panda
Date: 19-06-2006, 19:13

Yes, it's gonna be a great finish for neutrals...

SK (as we saw in both matches already) have a lot of energy, so they will never lose hope and CH will be scared to concede a late goal and go out. F have skill and quality, but also expectations, therefore pressure. Some say no ZZ in the next match is a big loss; others, that it is a blessing in disguise because he has not been as good as he should. There is a weather proverb 'Henry has never scored from a Zidane pass.' T have nothing to play for but pride. Except that pride is important, especially against the colonial power. T have a lot of skill, even if they make mistakes. Imagine, F take an early lead, then all 3 contenders will be very worried for the rest of the games...

But the Italy/CZ/GHA/USA group might also have an exciting finish, since all teams except Italy need to win.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Lyonnais Date: 19-06-2006, 21:09	Group E is much more interesting than Group G. At least, you see some football there.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: exile Date: 19-06-2006, 23:47	France have to score twice as many goals in 90 minutes as in the previous 450.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Ricardo Date: 20-06-2006, 08:14	France finaly has to win a game again after their final in '98 France lost from the african country in their group 4 years ago (0-1 against Senegal) which was the last match they had to win to progress. If France play it smart they will win 1-0 might not be enought, so they really should play for it. They can do it, but wil they.....

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: saibot Date: 20-06-2006, 08:31	The game between France and Senegal in 2002 was the opening match. They still had a small chance of making it through to the next round, when they faced Denmark in their last match of the group stage (we all know they failed).

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: executor Date: 20-06-2006, 08:36	@Ricardo No, the game with Senegal was the first in group. It was actually the openning game . The last game they had to win was with Denmark. But France must also be careful not to let goals in. They have received 4 goals in the last 5 WC games. Quite a lot, given the fact that half of those were scored by Senegal and South Korea.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Ricardo Date: 20-06-2006, 08:36	Yes, you are right, Senegal was the first match. They lost 2 matches. I remember that they had to win their last match and lost it.

Re: Why did FIFA change classification rules for WC?
Author: Aegis Date: 21-06-2006, 10:19 Edited by: Aegis at: 21-06-2006, 10:29	http://www.fff.fr/cm/actubleu/310624.shtml Jeez, the FFF doesn't even know the rules. They think the number of goals scored in Switzerland - Korea matters for us ... No wonder they appoint lame manager after lame manager. At this point of the competition, one would think they would have at least mastered the rules. Edit : I spoke too fast, they are right I just lost a chance to shut up