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U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 29-05-2006, 22:41	Someone watching it? Semifinalists have been decided couple of minutes ago. Ukraine(B1)-Serbia(A2) France(A1)-Holland(B2)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: ignjat63 Date: 29-05-2006, 22:48	Our TV showed Holland-Italy. They said the other match result and so we know we play you. I do not know your team but we do not play with our hearts. I think you are the favorite.

Author: SHEV
Date: 29-05-2006, 22:58

I'm really dissapointed with Serbian team on this tournament. I considered them as favourites, now not.

But in match with Ukraine I would say chances are 50-50. We have some good players(like Serbia) but overall performance could be better. And first place wasn't really deserved. Perhaps all teams was stronger and technically better, but smart tactic, some individual efforts and iron discipline did the job.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: ignjat63 Date: 29-05-2006, 23:04	Well, we certainly seemed like we do not try enough. Also coach Okuka is criticized for putting some players in the wrong positions. But we did play against tough teams. French are far better then anybody else, and we always play bad against Germans. We beat Portuguese though. I think it is 60 40 for you.

Author: SHEV
Date: 29-05-2006, 23:05

I saw all matches. The way Serbia won Portugal was just like Ukraine won Holland and Denmark. I really impressed with Krasic performance. Also Jankovic is good. It will be a close match on Thursday.

I don't understand why Milos Ninkovic from Dynamo Kiev wasn't called-up to Serbian team? Great player, fantastic technical skills, power, speed. I was expecting him to be one of the leaders in U-21 national team.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 29-05-2006, 23:07	You, right but Portugal wasn't really convincing on this tournament. But they sure saved your ass =)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Ricardo Date: 30-05-2006, 08:46	I believe the Dutch team has to thank Ukraine for getting to the semifinal. Thanks to the Milevsky goal Holland ended up 2nd and not 3rd. But I guess France is too good for the Dutch, unless they improve even more.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 30-05-2006, 08:59	France is strongest team on the tournament by far, winning all matches and not conceding a single goal. They look very solid. I would be very surprised if they won't win championship.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 30-05-2006, 10:47

@Ricardo

No, it's just the other way around. If Ukraine wouldn't have scored the 2-1, then the Netherlands would have been 1st and Ukraine 2nd. So it is unfortunate that Ukraine still won, as France is clearly the best team in the tournament so far.

A win yesterday was always enough for the Netherlands to qualify for the semi's. The Ukraine-Denmark result was only to determine if the Netherlands would have been 1st or 2nd.

This would have been the final standings if Ukraine-Denmark would have finished 1-1:

Netherlands, Ukraine and Italy 4 points
Denmark 3 points --> 4th place

head-to-head for the first 3:
Netherlands 3 points, GD 2-2
Ukraine 3 points, GD 2-2
Italy 3 points, GD 1-1 --> 3rd place

total goal difference for first 2:
Netherlands 3-3
Ukraine 3-3

result in play-offs (November 2005)
Netherlands 4 points (2-0 and 0-0 versus Slovenia) --> 1st place
Ukraine 3 points (3-1 and 2-3 versus Belgium) --> 2nd place

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Ricardo Date: 30-05-2006, 13:50	I looked at the Uefa.com matchcenter, with the live stanfding in the group. And they had Holland third. That's why I thought so.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 31-05-2006, 00:53

Football authorities are officially very much concerned about the health of players, making sure they have enough time to have some rest and so on, but at the end they make these players have 3 games in 6 days which seems to me unbelievable.

As far the semi-finalists are concerned, they have even chances to win the competition.
In 2002, the French team looked good, won easily their games, dominated the final but were unable to score and finally lost on penalty kicks to the Czechs (that they easily beat on group stage). So, as ever with KO games, everything is possible.

Holland beat Italy which is always impressive. I unfortunately won't be able to see the France - Holland game, but I really would have loved to see at last Huntelaar. His stats in the Eredivizie are so impressive.

And I'm very concerned about Ukraine and Serbia. This generation of young Ukrainians lost in final of their U-19 to Spain and Spain was eliminated in qualifying rounds by Serbia. So danger!

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 31-05-2006, 15:39	Ukraine U-19 was beaten in semifinal not final. I'm not impresed with Huntelaar at all. Nothing special. I suppose that in Eredivisie isn't so hard to score 30 goals even if you are mediocre player. There a lot of very weak teams that prefer very attacking formations and conceding tons of goals.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: ignjat63 Date: 31-05-2006, 15:47	This would probably sound absurd to many but I do not think Hollands first division these days is any better than ex-yu league in the 80s. When Kezman was in PSV I was watching their games on TV and it was practically the same type of football. That is why I think Kezman did so well in Holland and not anywhere else. That league suits our players. But of course, national team is different story.

Author: Joost
Date: 31-05-2006, 18:54

Well, Huntelaar is a player which you've got to 'use' right. He needs crosses from the left and right. Then he's VERY dangerous. Very smart player and very focused on target.
In the cupfinal against Psv you didn't see him all 90 minutes but he decided the match with two very good goals.
But as The Netherlands U-21 are playing like crap, he doesn't get a good ball.

As for underestimating leagues other than your own: that's nothing new. I don't know if you would call Ibrahimovic mediocre but he hasn't scored more than 13 goals a season in 3 years in the Dutch league: 6, 13 and 13 respectively.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 31-05-2006, 19:14

I was comparing different decades, really. In the 80s dutch league was better than yugo league and today it is incomparably better. But comparing the decades I'd say that in general footbal has become a poorer game skill-wise. The 20 or so super teams of Europe give a false picture because they are such a concentration of tallent.

As for Kezman, I'd say that if a player goes from one country to another he should choose well the country he goes to. Panchev for example was one of ex-yu best striker but did in Inter so poorly they call him there "an alleged striker".

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 31-05-2006, 19:47

You are right to say that some players are more adapted to some countries than others. Typically a guy like Henry needs space to provide his best. I am not sure that he would succeed in Italy for example (or even in France).

This said, when you are a foreign player, you also need to get adapted to the country / city, especially if it's your first move abroad. It's not a secret that Crespo or Drogba are not happy in England as an "immigrant". That doesn't mean that they fail there, but this doesn't help to increase your peformances.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 01-06-2006, 11:08	I wasn't underestimating Dutch league. I said that it has it's own distinctive features.

Author: panda
Date: 01-06-2006, 11:25

Yes- of course, my examples are from England or English players, but there are many examples where foreign players (and managers, e.g. Benitez) take time to adapt to the EPL; then many English players who never feel quite happy abroad without the English language (the usual problem) and the terrible English food (strange but true).

I think the example of Henry and space is very good as a hypothetical. If as a player you decide to change league, you gamble that you learn and flourish more than you succumb to the problems of the new place. And I guess if you go to a place where there are already compatriots e.g. very obviously, a Frenchman to Arsenal, a Spaniard to Liverpool, you increase the chances things will go OK.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 01-06-2006, 18:53	Huntelaar wow!!! I take my words back.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Lyonnais Date: 01-06-2006, 20:52 Edited by: Lyonnais at: 01-06-2006, 20:56	well done Netherlands I was right to be cautious, we always fail in U-21 (unique title in 1988!), I don't know why. This generation however was World Champion U-17 and I thought that maybe this time it could work. Maybe another time. Good luck for the final. A team able to beat Italy and France in the youth categories deserves all the best.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 01-06-2006, 22:14

It looks like we play a bit German-like in the tournament: start slow and getting better and better.
I didn't see the first 75 minutes of the game. But what I saw after that was that the Dutch deserved to go through. I mean they had more chances on goals and were playing more dangerously, though the French tto had their moments.
I wonder if we will meet Ukraine again - wonder if the outcome would be different.

What about the grown ups of Holland. They played with their b-team and still won from Mexico(number 4 of Fifa ranking!)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 01-06-2006, 22:52	Watching now extra-time of pathetic game Serbia-Ukraine. It's not a football. I realised the succes formula of Ukraine team. Being crap team itself they can make any other team playing against them look the same way.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: ignjat63 Date: 01-06-2006, 23:02	Shev, I could say the same thing about this Serbian team. Whomever Holland plays in the finals they are not going to have a difficult job.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 01-06-2006, 23:31	yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees =) Oh thank you God =))))))))

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: ignjat63 Date: 01-06-2006, 23:31	It is Ukraine on penalties. Congratulations.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Lyonnais Date: 01-06-2006, 23:43	Whomever wins, it is will their first success ever at that level of competition. Good luck to you two.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 02-06-2006, 00:49	But for Holland which is quite succesful at higher level it won't so important as for new country like Ukraine =))) So our good dutch friends - please lose again on sunday. Anyone remember 1988 year? =))) Holland and USSR played in a group and USSR won, then in final Holand won USSR =) I hope it won't happen again =)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Ricardo Date: 02-06-2006, 08:23	Anyone remember 2004 year? =))) Greece and Portugal played in a group and Greece won, then in final Greece won again =) I hope it won't happen again =)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 02-06-2006, 11:12	There are more similarities with Euro 1988: -Netherlands had to win the last group match and they scored 1-0 late in the 2nd half (Euro 1988 versus Ireland, now versus Italy) -Netherlands beat the big favorite in the semifinals (West Germany in Euro 1988 and France now) So it's just destined that the Netherlands will beat Ukraine sunday.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 02-06-2006, 11:29	Too many coincidences at least one should go other way =))

Author: SHEV
Date: 02-06-2006, 11:32

Shev, I could say the same thing about this Serbian team. Whomever Holland plays in the finals they are not going to have a difficult job
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It wasn't my point. The point was that whatever strong Holland will be - it'll look like crap in a match with Ukraine which was crap from the start =)) Like Greece in 2004. Hate such teams =)

Author: ignjat63
Date: 02-06-2006, 12:46

No reason to be depressed because of our defeat. Semifinals are a great achievement considering the mess our football is in. Congratulations to our guys and to Ukrainians too.

Shev I get your point now. I guess Serbia is going to play pretty much like Greece in Germany too. Holland and Argentina will certainly dominate midfield and we will have no choice but deffensive game with counterattacks. Maybe even destructive if they are a lot better. And Ivory Coast is simply going to outrun us. So we will have no choice really. I do not think Greece had any choice either.

Author: panda
Date: 02-06-2006, 12:55

In this case, a paradox, if you see this positively, you must see that:

boring-ness can be romantic.

Just like club football- you cannot ask of the underdog that he beats the favourite (even more so, over a number of games in a tournament)AND YET manages to play beautiful football too.

If the unfavoured side yet defends well, to see it resist heroically is great (unless you support the other side of course!)

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Heero Date: 02-06-2006, 13:01	As a Belgian it's very hard to see Ukraine in the final. We could have been there too, because we should have beet Ukraine in the play-offs, but they scored in the dying seconds of that match.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 02-06-2006, 13:21

panda

as a Balcan boy I confess to having a soft spot for Balcan countries. So I took great pleasure watching Greece kick ass all over the place that time. The tactics are not important. The extent of success was such that Greece was indeed heroic for me then in Portugal.

And not so good teams have to make do with what they have. Serbia has players for deffence and counterattack kind of game, and that's what they will play. Boring or not. I hope they go through and play Mexico.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 02-06-2006, 18:13	Where I can download yesterdays France-Holland goals?

Author: S448250
Date: 05-06-2006, 13:07

And the dutch win the title. Huntelaar shows his class, i wonder how long he is going to stay at ajax. 1 year i presume.

After the 'real' dutch team (the team which is going to Germany) had several injuries on the midfield last match (Sneijder, Cocu, v/d Vaart) the coach said that maybe he will subsitutes them for players which played at the U-21 tournament.

Which players do you think makes a chance? And is it possible to play 2 tournaments in 1 month.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 05-06-2006, 13:17	Many teams using players on both tournaments. Only Van Basten for some reason didn't allow young players to play for U-21. So it's not the question if a player can play 2 tournaments - it's just another idiotic stuff from Marco(the one after Seedorf and Makaay left outside and the one when he wrot letter to FIFA)

Author: Joost
Date: 05-06-2006, 14:06

This players got through the qualificationmatches. IMO it wouldn't have been 'fair' to field v/d Vaart, Robben, v. Persie, Sneijder, Maduro, Babel etc.
And it's a valuable experience for this U-21 side. Besides that, named players were necessary in friendlies to try and reach the best starting line-up for the 'big Orange'.

I too should've left Makaay and Seedorf at home. They are decent players but for makaay there are better strikers, especially as he likes to 'hide' himself in stead of taking part in the game. He only likes to finish. V. Basten wants strikers who wants to have the ball too.

Seedorf doesn't defend properly. Thinks he's a star and doesn't care for his opponent. In the way Van Basten wants to play it is deadly when one player/midfielder let his opponent 'walk'.

So they don't fit in the team and besides that I do not think they are that good.

As for the game of yesterday: Ukraine are a good team with some players the world will hear of in the coming years. Holland did have a lot of luck but in the end they played a quite impressive game.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Joost Date: 05-06-2006, 14:34	"Which players do you think makes a chance?" Depends if it has to be a left- or rightfooted player and attacking of defensive. I don't think there are any U-21 players in midfield who are really ready. Maybe De Zeeuw (or Schaars if the player has to be left-footed).

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: pla Date: 05-06-2006, 19:30	sorry but i'ts like experienced players like seedorf that Milan can join Lyon in quarter final CL : seedorf never give up. But in every teams there are strange list.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 06-06-2006, 13:35	I have big doubt if Makaay in any form and style of play worse then Babel.

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: Ricardo Date: 06-06-2006, 14:17	Makaay is not a wing-man. Makaay is a counter-player. used to a different style than like the Dutch plays. Center attacks holland has more than enough. I would first bring Huntelaar, then only Makaay

Re: U-21 European Championship
Author: SHEV Date: 08-06-2006, 00:23	What you saying isn't really convincing. Tell me how Babel appeared in squad? You won't prove me that Van Basten isn't idiot. He is stupid as much as Domenech who is another "great" coach.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 08-06-2006, 08:09

Babel is a wing-man(though he tend to go to the center). He is pure a replacemnt might something go wrong with Robben. I think we(Dutch) have 2 excellent wingmen: Robben and van Persie. 1 that can be a great center and a great wingman: Kuijt. And then we still have Babel. I don't expect him to play a lot. Only when the others get tired.
Me personally I would have taken Castelen, but he is a right-winger, while Babel is left.
I don't like Marco's selection scheme. He trained the juniors of Ajax before he started as a coach of the Dutch team. Therefor he knows more about these Ajax youngsters than from others. That's the first reason(not the most important) to choose him.
Marco trained these youngsters first and likes some things about it. When he is looking for that in the big Dutch team, he will fal back to the team he trained before -> Babel.