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Author: Vesuvio
Date: 15-05-2006, 01:11
Edited by: Vesuvio
at: 15-05-2006, 02:41

I think that you already know about Juventus and Moggi, and the fact that last season was totally fake.

Moggi was a chief of a organization that with mafious behaviour decided all the referees of Italian matches.

Moggi every thursday spoke with the referee appointers and chose together the referee for all the match of Serie A, and on Friday there was a fake draw.

On the sunday evening Moggi called a journalist of La7 tv and ordered which referee save or criticize in the Monday talk-show.

An incredible thing is that when Juventus lost their forst match against Reggina, Moggi and Giraudo went in dresing-room, insulted and threated referee and assisitant and then locked them in the room taking away the key.

There is a phone tap where De Santis said that he sent off a Livorno player at his first foul (Galante in Livorno-Siena) just because he wanted punish Livorno's chairman Spinelli that accused De Santis to form a "band" with other referre (all involved in the scandal).

In the last round of last season De Santis was referee in Lecce-Parma (3-3) and had two aims. Avoid the win of Parma to save Fiorentina,and unweak Parma for a possible play-off with Bologna. He cautioned all the six players of Parma that had already three yellow card and so was suspended for the match against Bologna.

Very often the referee hammered the teams that in next match played with Juventus with red and yellow card to players that were been suspended with that yellow card.

Beside Juventus also Fiorentina and Lazio will risk to be relegated. In the end of last season chairmans Della Valle and Lotito asked an help to moggi to have good referees. They are trying to defend themselves sayin that were obliged to ask an help since (particularly Fiorentina) where hammered since they were against the "system".

Obviously these justification can't make them no guilty.

Milan situation is better since there are some phone tapes of their man assigned to receive the referee, not the chairman or high manager.

Tomorrow newspapers will publish other phone tapes, this time on the just closed season, starting from Juventus-Siena (referee De Santis)

If there is the willing to make justice these are the probable punishments.

Juventus will lost 2004-05 Scudetto that won't be assigned.

Juventus will be relegated in B with penalty points or in C1

Fiorentina and Lazio will be relegated in B.

So Milan will be winner of Scudetto and will be in CL

Inter, Roma and Chievo in CL

Palermo, Livorno and Parma in Uefa Cup

Empoli in IC if want partecipate.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: miktceltic Date: 15-05-2006, 01:18	What are the odds of your prediction actually happening?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: STK Date: 15-05-2006, 01:42	@Vesuvio, I read an article that said, Moggi had an powerfull influence over the UEFA's refferees in some CL matches (with a swedish team included). The article, said that this was actually recorded. It is someting true to this?

Author: Vesuvio
Date: 15-05-2006, 01:49

If justice exist 100% (if don't surely less) at least for Juventus. Last season Genoa were relegate for a single fixed match. Now we have two managers of Juventus that decided a whole season. Scudetto for Juventus, and the salvation of Fiorentina and Lazio. Beside the sporting justice, Moggi is under prosecution for criminal association, fraud, conditioning of market with violence and threats, person seizure.

Through phone taps we have a scenario that schocked all football lovers. All knows that Moggi was a powerful man, but not at so criminal level.

People that aren't supporters of Juventus already had a deep hatred for them, and now also many Juventus fans are schocked and will accept an heavy punishpent.

Anyway the road is long. There are two inquries. The ordinary jusice is very low, the footbal justice is faster but probably the first verdict will arrive within 3 weeks, but then there will be the appelation, and probably the definitive one will arrive in July.

Author: Vesuvio
Date: 15-05-2006, 01:58

Yes, STK It's all true. There is a phone tap where Mogi have complaints with referee appointer Pairetto for the referee of Juventus.Djurgarden and ask a "good" one for the second leg. And another tap wher Pairetto announced the referee in advance.

Anyway, all Italian on-line papers have pages on this affair. For your knowledge I copied an article from Times (two days ago) that explain well the situation, that have further envelopments.

taly in a league of its own when it comes to football corruption
By Gabriele Marcotti and Martin Penner in Rome
ITALY, where football is the ruling passion and hopes for the forthcoming World Cup are high, is reeling from charges that the national game is riddled with corruption of the kind that taints its politics.

Never mind that the country has no government and faces economic woes, as police raided the headquarters of the Italian Football Federation yesterday, what concerned many was the fate of the country’s oldest and largest club, Juventus — which tomorrow is almost certain to win the league title of Serie A, equivalent to the Premiership, for the 19th time.

“Juve” is at the core of the scandal and if the worst comes to the worst, fans of “The Old Lady” — a club with a proud record of European triumph — face the unthinkable prospect of their team being relegated to Serie B as punishment.

Strands of the scandal go way beyond football, to the heart of the Italian establishment in business and politics. At its centre is Luciano Moggi, the general manager of Juventus, who is allegedly heard on one phone tap leaked by investigators in Naples asking a federation official: “Who the hell was that ref you sent us?” He goes on to demand certain match officials by name for future matches.

To compound Juve’s troubles, Antonio Giraudi, the club’s chief executive officer, is under investigation for accounting fraud, and four players, including Italy’s goalkeeper Gianluigi Buffon, are being investigated for allegedly taking part in illegal betting.

The phone taps are among leaked evidence from three investigations by magistrates in Turin, Naples, Rome, Parma and Perugia. A total of nine clubs, including Juventus, Lazio, Fiorentina and AC Milan — owned by Silvio Berlusconi, the former prime minister and Italy’s richest man — and 58 men and women have been named in investigations.

Among them are referees, including Massimo de Santis, the Italian official assigned to the World Cup, journalists, members of law enforcement agencies and executives of the Italian Football Federation. Franco Carraro, the Federation’s chief executive, resigned this week, as did Innocenzo Mazzini, his deputy. Yesterday Italian authorities raided Signor Carraro’s offices and his home in Rome, while also seizing documents at the headquarters of the Italian referees’ association. Signor Carraro, who has been involved at the highest levels of Italy’s sporting establishment for the past 30 years, stands accused of tacitly approving Signor Moggi’s actions.

Prosecutors are looking closely at 19 matches in the 2004-05 season, 12 of them involving Juventus, to see whether there are irregularities in refereeing decisions.

Investigators are thought to believe that Signor Moggi commanded a group of officials who were willing to help Juventus, mostly by a judicious use of the yellow card.

One approach, investigators suspect, was for referees to keep booking important players from teams that Juventus were due to play, so that match bans would kick in when the Juve match came round.

On Thursday the Juventus board resigned, under pressure from the majority shareholders, the Agnelli family. For the Agnellis, owners of Fiat, Italy’s largest employer, the affair is proving embarrassing. That day Juve shares dropped 9.38 per cent. They sank by 4.9 per cent yesterday.

According to the investigation, Signor Moggi manipulated much of the Italian game on two levels. First, wiretaps reveal that he had frequent conversations with Pierluigi Pairetto, the head of the Italian referees, whose job it was to name specific officials for matches. Transcripts of their conversations reveal that Signor Moggi lobbied for certain officials and vetoed those not to his liking. One wiretap, between Signor Pairetto and the referee Paolo Dondarini, ends with the latter being told, just before taking charge of a Juventus match: “You know what you have to do. Make sure you see everything. Even that which isn’t there.”

The other branch of the inquiry concerns GEA World, a football agency run by Signor Moggi’s son Alessandro, 32. GEA World brought together the scions of Italy’s most powerful footballing families, including Giuseppe De Mita (the son of former Prime Minister Ciriaco); Francesca Tanzi (daughter of the since disgraced Parmalat owner Calisto); Riccardo Calleri (son of Gianmarco, the former Torino president), and Chiara Geronzi (daughter of Cesare, the head of Capitalia, Italy’s second-biggest bank).

The company represents about 200 professional footballers and managers in Italy and, it is alleged, Signor Moggi Snr used it to move players between clubs, influence matches and act as the de facto power broker of the Italian game. He and his son are now accused of racketeering and intimidation.

It is said that Gianni Agnelli, Fiat’s aristocratic patriarch, who died in 2003, when asked about the hiring of the controversial Signor Moggi in the mid-1990s, remarked: “Sometimes it’s a good thing if your stablemaster knows who the horse thieves are. And I think [Moggi> knows them all.”

Author: Vesuvio
Date: 15-05-2006, 02:38

Another articke from Belfast Telegraph that include wire taps

Italian football under the microscope: Last days for Italy's Godfather of football
In the first of a two-part series on Italian football, Frank Dunne reports on the bugging scandal which seems certain to bring down Luciano Moggi, the key figure in a decade of success at Juventus

By Frank Dunne
10 May 2006

The publication in Italian newspapers last week of taped phone calls involving the Juventus director general, Luciano Moggi, has shaken Italian football to its foundations. The conversations appeared to lift the lid on a world of favours and behind-the-scenes deals between Moggi, Pierluigi Pairetto, head of the Italian referees' association and a member of Uefa's referees' commission, and Innocenzo Mazzini, the vice-president of the Italian Football Federation.

The wire taps, which had been ordered by Turin magistrates over a 48-day period in 2004, will add to the conspiracy theories concerning Juve's power over referees and ability to manipulate the transfer market. The magistrates found that there was no basis for bringing criminal charges as a result of the tapped conversations, and many of them consist of vague posturing, but the inferences were all too clear, and the football federation here immediately launched its own investigation, promising swift action and no cover-ups.

In one conversation (see panel) Moggi berates Pairetto for having sent the German referee, Herbert Fandel, to take charge of a Champions' League qualifying game between Juve and the Swedish club Djurgarden. Fandel's offence was to disallow a Juve goal. Moggi tells Pairetto that he is " counting on him" in the return leg. Pairetto is also recorded telling a referee who is about to take charge of a Juve league game that he will need " 50 pairs of eyes, to see everything, even that which doesn't happen".

In other recorded conversations, Moggi advises two leading players - Fabio Cannavaro, then with Internazionale, and Zlatan Ibrahimovic, then with Ajax - on how to force a crisis with their respective clubs to facilitate a move to Juventus. Both players joined the Turin club shortly afterwards (as did Arsenal's Patrick Vieira for £14m last summer, though there has been no suggestion of anything improper in that deal).

Moggi later tells Mazzini of his idea to shift a female colleague of Pairetto's, with whom Pairetto is unhappy, to another job within the federation by attempting to convince the Italy coach, Marcello Lippi, that he needs a "secretary" who is familiar with top European referees. To his credit, Lippi does not fall for the ruse.

Unsavoury as last week's revelations were, they represent only the tip of the iceberg. Moggi's son, Alessandro, runs GEA, the biggest and most influential players agency in Italy. Some regard this as presenting a clear conflict of interests, and in a separate criminal investigation in Rome GEA is suspected of "illegal competition with use of threats and violence" . If charged and found guilty, those involved could face prison. In March, when police raided GEA offices, they found an internal memo from the agency's managing director, Franco Zavaglia, in which he advises staff to try to attract new players by "demonstrating what our organisation is about, not by bandying around the name of Luciano Moggi and without threatening anybody, as happened in the past". The agency has over 200 professional players and 24 coaches on its books.

The disclosure last weekend that magistrates in Naples taped a whole series of further conversations, involving some of the most powerful figures in Italian football, for the whole of last season has led to widespread paranoia in the world of calcio.

Some of the sport's senior figures have already paid the price for the scandal and many more will follow in the coming weeks. Franco Carraro, the president of the Italian football federation, resigned on Monday, citing lack of support from key allies for his efforts to investigate the matter. Mazzini, who was swiftly dropped from the official federation party for next month's World Cup, is also expected to resign from the federation or to be removed.

Pairetto was reprimanded last week by Uefa for giving Moggi confidential information about referees for Juve's Champions' League games. He will be replaced next season as the Italian representative on the Uefa referees' commission by Pierluigi Collina. Five referees, including Massimo De Santis, who is due to officiate at the World Cup, have been identified in the Italian media as being suspected of favouring Juventus, but it is unclear whether they are under investigation. De Santis yesterday said that the referees were innocent and were being "massacred" by the press.

A former railway station master from Tuscany, Moggi has been one of the most controversial figures in Italian football for over 20 years, a period in which his ability to discover talent and his guile in the transfer market have given him an unrivalled power base. It has long been suspected by players and supporters of rival clubs that he abused this power to obtain refereeing decisions favourable to Juventus and to pressure players into signing up for his son's agency, but very few people have been prepared to go on record about this. Now that his aura of invincibility has been undermined, enemies are more likely to come forward.

The Juventus board is expected to demand the resignations of Moggi and the club's chief executive, Antonio Giraudo, who was shown to be at least aware of Moggi's lobbying. The vice-president, Roberto Bettega, the third member of the "Triad" which has run the club since 1994, may also be told to go, even though there is no suggestion that he has done anything wrong. The former Juventus striker, whose sons were referred to as "cretins" by Moggi in one conversation with Giraudo, burst into tears at the end of Sunday's 2-1 home win over Palermo.

Moggi's response so far is to say there is a club rule which prevents him from commenting, but Giraudo claims the leaks are a gross invasion of privacy and points out that the initial inquiry found no wrongdoing. Mazzini has declined to comment beyond saying that he has "complete faith in the justice system". Pairetto has told reporters that snatches of phone conversations, taken out of context, gave a false impression and that in his conversations with Moggi all he had done was defend the work of his colleagues.

The Agnelli family, who own Fiat and are major shareholders in the club, are said to be furious about the damage done to the club's image. On Sunday, they distanced themselves from the management trio by pointedly pledging their backing for "the team and the coach", with no mention of Moggi, Giraudo or Bettega.

Despite the Agnellis' public support for the coach, Fabio Capello, who has one year to run on his contract, the coach is thought to have become disenchanted with the environment in Turin since he was insulted by Juve fans following the team's elimination from the Champions' League at the hands of Arsenal. There were unconfirmed reports yesterday that he has already held talks with Inter's president, Massimo Moratti, about a move to the Milan club.

While "Moggi-gate", as it has been dubbed, raises questions about the ethics of some of those involved in top-level football in Italy it also raises questions about civil liberties. Giraudo was angry that he was able to read the contents of his own phone taps in newspapers before being told anything about the investigation by magistrates. Obtaining permission for a wire tap from a local judge appears to be relatively simple for investigating magistrates and the frequency with which the contents of such taps appear verbatim in newspapers, without anyone having been charged, has alarmed many.

Amid the bitter recriminations it has gone almost unnoticed that Juventus will win their 29th scudetto on Sunday if they avoid defeat against Reggina. It would be the seventh league title won under the stewardship of Giraudo, Moggi and Bettega, who together have transformed the team into one of the richest and most economically stable in world football. Their removal from office would send a powerful signal to a game which has become almost pathologically obsessed with winning.

The scandal could turn out to be a watershed in Italian football but such is the cynicism most people believe that a strong showing by Italy in the World Cup will be enough to whet everybody's appetite for another season of Serie A, with Juventus starting once again as favourites. As the author Giuseppe Tomasi di Lampedusa once famously wrote, in Italy things have to change so that everything can remain the same.

How the bug bit Moggi: The taped conversations that have put the director general of Juventus at the heart of a footballing furore

THE CAST

Luciano Moggi Director General of Juventus

Pierluigi Pairetto Head of Italian Referees' Association and member of Uefa Referees' Commission

THE TIME

September, 2004

THE CONVERSATIONS

Pierluigi Pairetto: I know that you've forgotten about me but I haven't forgotten about you.

Luciano Moggi: Go on...

PP: I've put a great referee for the game in Amsterdam.

LM: Who?

PP: Meier.

LM: Great!

PP: Anyway, it was just to tell you this. You see, I remember about you even if you...

(Ajax played Juventus on 15 September, the referee was Urs Meier, from Switz-erland. Juventus won 1-0)

(Juventus drew 2-2 at home to Swedish club Djurgarden in a Champions' League qualifier in August 2004. German Referee Herbert Fandel disallowed a goal by Juve's Miccoli.)

LM: But what the f... kind of referee did you send us?

PP: Fandel is one of the best...

LM: Miccoli's goal was valid.

PP: No it wasn't.

LM: It was valid, it was valid.

PP: He was in front...

LM: What are you talking about in front? And anyway, all through the game he messed things up for us.

PP: But he's one of the top...

LM: He can go and f... himself. And for Stockholm [the return leg> I'm counting on you.

(Juve won the return leg 4-1, with England's Graham Poll refereeing. Two days before the game, Moggi called the secretary of the Italian football league.)

LM: The ref is Cardozo, right?

Sec: I've got Graham Poll written here.

LM: Uhm. Where's he from?

Sec: He's English.

(A few minutes later, Moggi calls Pairetto.)

LM: So it's Cardozo, eh?

PP: Eh?

LM: It's Paul Green [Moggi means Graham Poll>

PP: What?

LM: Paul Green

PP: Well something has happened at the last minute, he was sick or something.

LM: Find out.

PP: Yes, yes. I'll look into it right away.

(Before a series of pre-season friendly games.)

LM: For Messina, send me Consolo and Battaglia.

PP: I've already done the refs.

LM: And who are you sending us?

PP: Consolo and Battaglia, I think.

LM: And for the Berlusconi trophy, I want Pieri, all right?

PP: I haven't done that yet.

LM: OK, we'll do that later.

(A conversation takes place between Pairetto and Paolo Dondarini, the referee he had selected to officiate a Serie A match between Juventus and Sampdoria.)

PP: You know what you have to do. Make sure you see everything. Even that which isn't there.

(Back in 2004, Juventus had been tracking Ajax's Swedish striker Zlatan Ibrahimovic as a possible transfer target. Moggi rang Antonio Giraudo, chief executive at Juventus, to tell him that Ibrahimovic had scored a hat-trick for Ajax.)

LM: What the hell! But I specifically told him to play badly.

Antonio Giraudo: I told him! We had agreed that he would play badly, go see the manager after the game, tell him that he would never play for them again and demand that he be sold to us.

Author: Nick
Date: 15-05-2006, 07:08
Edited by: Nick
at: 15-05-2006, 07:10

Hmmm. As a football supporter I hope that Juve will be punished severely for this. I really don't know what UEFA is waiting for! They have been proven to fix CL qualifiers. And I guess Djurgardens have every reason to complain that they have been robbed by Juve and denied a place in the CL GS. If such a scandal goes by unpunished next year we will have more "big guns" trying to do the same. I can still remember the Dynamo Kyev scandal a few years ago.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: doctor Date: 15-05-2006, 09:34	5 years suspendation from uefa would be perfect

Author: Ricardo
Date: 15-05-2006, 10:30

As there was also fraude in UefaCUp matches, Uefa should also take actions and not only let the Italian FA do something about it. Though they might wait on what they do. I mean if Italian FA ban Juventus to the Serie C it will take them 3 years to come back to the seria A. Then it wouldn't help banning Juve for the same time for European matches, as they won't qualify for it anyway.
The worsest thing I think of this is that so many referees helped Juventus. How many referees were involved? I don't think they can be thrusted anymore for a next match - new referees must come forward. It is a great setback for Italian football (but I have to admit I am not very surprised - less then in Germany at least)

Next thing: Is there going to be a Italian referee on the WC?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 15-05-2006, 10:45	Talking about Fraude... what about the 16 monuteis of extra time Fenerbahce got? I have not got any detail about this, just read that 16 miuntes extra time were given. Can anybody give a good reason why this was given? Was a player on the ground for 10 minutes or so? It sounds extremely long, but there should be a reason ofcourse...

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 15-05-2006, 10:57	Is it not right that Italy withdrew refs from WC? Yeah- Moggigate is big news here in england - I saw that Times article too (Times has v interesting sports coverage). People have tried to expose such corruption in it footbal for 30+ yrs. It's obvious Juventus should suffer severe penalty including loss of Euro football but like all of you, I will believe it when I see it....

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: seso Date: 15-05-2006, 11:04	Massimo de Santis, the Italian referee that would be at the WC, has been recalled, as he is not just Italian but he has also been involved in the scandal!!!

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: spoonman Date: 15-05-2006, 12:00	I've heard rumours about AC Milan also being involved in this scandal. Are there any news about this?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 15-05-2006, 12:28	Prosecutors in Naples, Rome, Parma and Turin are conducting probes ranging from match-fixing to illegal betting. Naples prosecutors said last week they are investigating four Serie A clubs -- Juventus, Lazio, AC Milan and Fiorentina -- for alleged match-fixing that could implicate "top names."

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 15-05-2006, 18:55
Edited by: cptstrazza
at: 15-05-2006, 18:57

This is the probable situation, in this moment, according the most important newspapers:

Juventus: serie B
Fiorentina: serie B
Lazio: serie B
Milan: some points of penalty or nothing

The difference depends on this: the first 3 team have managers and owners involved in the telephone calls, to arrange results, in a lot of different games.
Milan have only a couple of calls, not very clear, made by an external employer, talking about 1 game.
So there are big differences of responsability.

Of course the situation is changing very quickly, and on every day something new is happening, covering new teams and games.

Author: panda
Date: 15-05-2006, 19:01
Edited by: panda
at: 15-05-2006, 19:31

Any idea of timescale?

If there is relegation, will it immediately take effect from the start of next season?

Presumably if so, then all the Euro qualifications are changed for It teams.

I imagine it is open to uefa to impose separate penalties, but maybe they won't feel they need to.

Here a book by Gianluca Vialli is just published, with many intelligent comments on english and italian football. Also he compares italian football to the politics of the city-state and of Machiavelli - an environment of intrigues, favours etc.

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 16-05-2006, 09:43

It is very difficult to make a prevision about a timescale.
The problem is this: now the investigations are still in the
preliminary part, and they are made by the ordinary judges,
to decide if there are crimes to punish.
Only in a second moment all the documents will be transferred
to different judges, to decide if there are violation of the
sport rules.
Then we have to remember that in Italy we have 3 different
level of judgement, before arriving to a definitive sentence.
And on that sentence there 2 more administrative appeals.
So, it is almost impossible to obtain 5 different judgements in
a very short time.
Of course UEFA is worried about this situation, 'cause they have
to know the teams' names for the draw, knowing the coefficient
of the qualified.
In Italy they think to move the beginning of serie A from August 27 to October...
But what to do with the cups?
We wait for more news...

Author: panda
Date: 16-05-2006, 11:17
Edited by: panda
at: 16-05-2006, 15:37

Today there is another article in the Times on Moggigate. And it makes the quote from the Vialli book- to the effect that

When Italian fan thinks referee makes bad decision, he accuses him of being corrupt. When English fan thinks referee makes bad decision, he accuses him of being incompetent.

So then the journalist writes: 'Thank God for our incompetent referees!' (All my life, I have known the phrase 'Ref! You need glasses!')

Well, it's all a juicy story and also maybe justice, but I am also sad as I have for a long time been fan of Italian football and Italian culture.

Edited:

Yes, this subject is on every day here; we are learning that there are to be new transcripts, and that Moggi snr has been interviewed.

Largely, the belief in England is 'it could not happen here' because, irrespective of the sense of fair play, we are too disorganised in the administration for one man or one cartel to dominate.

Author: Vesuvio
Date: 16-05-2006, 20:33

Italian Football is in a big mess and have a big problem now since Uefa want the mames of he teams qualified at CL, Uefa Cup and Intertoto within 5 June.

Since many teams are under prosecution it seem impossible that Italy can give the names, Juventus, Fiorentina and Lazio risk the relegation, Milan can have a point penalty that can took them from CL to Uefa Cup.

Palermo is qualified for Intertoto and will play first at 15 july, but they could be promotoed to Uefa Cup or CL.

To put the Italian teams in the draws with no names (Italy1, Italy2, Italy3, Italy 4) seems impossible since is very different to have Milan, Roma or Chievo since they have a very different ranking for seedind. so there are rumours that all the Italian teams will be unseeded.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 16-05-2006, 20:42	Nice idea to have Inter unseeded in CLQ3, and Milan as a Pot-4-team. Could become an interesting match Steaua-Inter in the qualification.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 16-05-2006, 21:48	@Vesuvio The draws for the Italian teams are only on 28 July (CL QR3), and in August. So by then the Italian participants have to be known I assume.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Vesuvio Date: 16-05-2006, 22:50	@Forza AZ So as I said above Uefa want know the names within 5 Juny for organization reasons according Gazzetta dello Sport http://www.gazzetta.it/Calcio/Altro_Calcio/Primo_Piano/2006/05_Maggio/16/euroco ppe.shtml

Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 16:11
Edited by: panda
at: 18-05-2006, 16:27

This from reuters today:

###
European soccer's governing body UEFA needs to know by June 5 the list of clubs who will play in next season's two European competitions. There are concerns a federation investigation into the telephone taps will not be completed by then.

A UEFA spokesman said it was ready to listen to any application for an extension from the Italians when the executive meets in Scotland on Monday.

The draw for the qualifying rounds take place on June 24.
###

presumably not the draw for QR3. But if even just Juventus get thrown out, the seeding threshold will move about.

Just looked up gazzetta dello sport. Good grief! It's like an on-line diary; you can follow the 'action' minute by minute - who they raid, what they say, what they take away etc etc. wonder if one is allowed to bet on the results....whoops, probably not.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:01

I'm pretty confident any Italian teams being kicked out wouldn't improve their seeding position.

If only Juve were kicked out:

GS - Juve and Milan becomes Milan and Inter (both high seeds in each case).

QR3 - Inter and Fiorentina becomes Fiorentina and Roma (one high side and one non-seed in each case).

If the three teams under major investigation (Juve, Fiorentina and Lazio) were kicked out:

GS - Milan and Inter (both still high-seeds)

QR3 - Roma and Chievo (still one seed and one non-seed).

Valencia would be promoted to pot 1 in the event of Roma replacing Juve.

If Milan were to be excluded as well (I've heard points deductions mentioned) it becomes:

GS: Inter, Roma
QR3: Chievo, Palermo

Palermo would still be seeded in QR3 but would be a pot 4 team at the GS. Lille would move to Pot 2 and AEK would definitely be in Pot 3.

So no changes of any sort before the Group Stage.

For the UEFA Cup current teams are:

Roma 76.020, Lazio 57.020 and Chievo 23.020.

Could be: Lazio 57.020, Palermo 36.020, Chievo 23.020 (IT Livorno)
or
Parma 63.020, Palermo 36.020, Livorno 22.020 (IT Empoli)
or even
Parma 63.020, Livorno 22.020, Empoli 22.020. (IT Ascoli)

Preliminary UEFA R1 seedings wouldn't be affected. Chievo are currently ranked somewhere between 36 and 41 on the seeding list and the only team between them and Livorno/Empoli is Dinamo Bucharest (and if they are in then either Steaua or Rapid must be out...)

Again no changes before the Group Stage (or at least none obvious until all qualifying round results are in).

Let the Italians have their extension.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:10

I first suggest to wait and see. As someone said, I will believe it when I see it (and when the last appeal is out). Juve is such an institution in Italy...
I don't doubt about Italian justice willing to clean the Calcio. However, we saw few affairs in recent years (pharmacy of Juve, virtual bankrupcy of Roma, etc.) that have been finally cleared by the authorities.

Second, should Juve be punished (meaning excluded from European competitions next year), it is not granted to me that Juve would be replaced by say Roma. UEFA could simply decide to exclude Juve and not to replace it.

I tend to believe that it is too early to make such speculations.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 18-05-2006, 17:26	@panda Throwing out Italian team won't have an effect on seeding in the rounds for which the draw is made on 23 June (QR1 & 2 CL and QR1 UEFA), as there are no Italian teams in that rounds. So only team Italy has to give to UEFA before 28 July (draw QR3 CL and QR2 UEFA) is the team that will play in the Intertoto.

Author: panda
Date: 18-05-2006, 17:41

@Forza AZ

Yes! This is the point you make earlier up the thread, isn't it? That 28 July is some way off, and that uefa's requirement for knowing by 5 June can only be administrative.

@Badgerboy

Interesting; so actually it would make only a tiny bit of difference, unless the excluded teams were not replaced.

@lyonnais

It was me that wrote 'I'll believe it when I see it.' But day by day the thing has become so ridiculous and like a sort of vindication of conspiracy theory I cannot help starting to project fanatsies.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: rufusrome Date: 18-05-2006, 17:51	I think the only teams who suffer from the system moggi were AS Roma and Inter Milan and some teams who relegated in this years . I think Agnelli clan knew of this thinks or they don't wanted to know .To claim that they are not involve mean that they recognise that are just a coup of fouls bilionaire .

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: badgerboy Date: 18-05-2006, 17:53	Yeah, I have the feeling they'll get away with "it" - whatever "it" ultimately turns out to be. Don't take my post as an expectation of what will happen, just a series of what-ifs... Still, would be nice to see the Flying Donkeys in the CL.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Vesuvio Date: 18-05-2006, 21:45 Edited by: Vesuvio at: 18-05-2006, 22:24	Uefa said that will wait until 10 July for the names of Italian teams, and won't accept further extension.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: MalcolmW Date: 18-05-2006, 23:23	July 10 has to be an assolute deadline because the Italian entrant to Intertoto are at home on July 15. If at that point there is no nomination from Italy for this what will happen? Any foreign substitute entrant will not be able to enter at round 1 (or 2) because these will have already passed. Will the Romanian / Bulgarian /Macedonian team be given a bye? I haven't a cluj.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ondrej Date: 19-05-2006, 02:31	A similar case happened in the Czech republic year ago. Slovan Liberec who was punished for bribing referees is now Czech champion, other people involved have even higher posts at Czech football association. Football fans are disgusted with the football environment and football?s credibility fell under zero. I hope Italian oficials will have more will to solve this case.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 19-05-2006, 05:45	I would cheer the italian authorities and UEFA if they really punish Juve and the other teams involved in this affair. If a real big gun like Juve get't kicked out this would have a cleansing effect not only in Italy but in other countries as well. After all they manipulated not only domestic games but also CL qualifiers.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 19-05-2006, 06:05	I suppose if they let go Juve and others involved lightly, the trust of the league in the future would be under question. If only Moggi is punished would you consider next scudetto won fairly?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 19-05-2006, 16:37 Edited by: Nick at: 19-05-2006, 16:43	Hmmm. According to bulgarian sports radio "Gong" (they are a usually a credible source for information)Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina will be relegated by tomorrow. If true then Chievo will have the chance to play qualify for the CL and even Empoli will get a UEFA Cup place.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Giuseppe Date: 19-05-2006, 17:56	I have a feeling this whole thing will be swept under the rug. I hope I'm wrong :\|

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 19-05-2006, 18:22	I don't think this can be just ignored. The scandal is way too big. The big problem for Juve is that they also fixed international matches and tried to buy under price Ibrahimovic. So Ajax is another victim of them.

Author: Giuseppe
Date: 19-05-2006, 18:46
Edited by: Giuseppe
at: 19-05-2006, 18:51

Not that I think it's the same thing, but after the Heysel incident ALL English clubs were banned from European competitions for 5 years. In that incident only one English club was involved, but the punishment imposed by UEFA was global. Now we have a case in which at least one Italian club has arranged European cup matches and at least 4 Italian clubs have arranged national competition matches.
If you ask me what happened at Heysel can't be compared to match arrangements, but there is a big difference: back then Liverpool FC wasn't to blame, a bunch of hooligans were to blame; today the actual clubs (Juventus, Milan, Lazio, Fiorentina and god knows what others) are responsible for this.
I wonder what UEFA will do? I'm sure this plague (match arrangements and extortion) extends way beyond Italy and a stand has to be made.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 19-05-2006, 18:58	I have to agree, only serious punishment would be just. Although Heysel did lead to improvements in hooligan control in England; there is no doubt, hooligans were a small minority and all english football suffered for their actions. IN Italyitself there was relegationpunishent for much smaller offence previously. We can only hope that there is some sort of justice this time.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 19-05-2006, 19:05 Edited by: Nick at: 19-05-2006, 19:05	The big question is: Is UEFA ready to sacrifice the italian TV market in order to support Fair Play or not

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: dawgs Date: 19-05-2006, 19:11	IMO we already had this question answered when Roma and Inter were involved in crowd disturbances in the CL a couple of years ago. Since the start of the CL - I think OM and DynamoKyiv were two clubs to be punished with exclusion for irregular dealings. Can any of you guys think of other examples?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 19-05-2006, 19:15 Edited by: Nick at: 19-05-2006, 19:17	Well, match fixing is IMHO a bigger offence than crowd trouble. Dynamo Kiev were excluded for bribing a referee. Exactly what Juve did. Strangely enough there are almost no reports on UEFA.com about this case. The newest thing is from a week ago about the board of Juve resigning ?

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 19-05-2006, 20:12

match fixing is IMHO a bigger offence than crowd trouble

It depends on what you define as 'crowd trouble'. Remember the Heysel.

Both are simply unacceptable in European football.

With the new affair coming from Holland this time, i become very worried about the integrity of football.
Football authorities have to be extremely tough to address these issues, otherwise it will be the beginning of the end.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 20-05-2006, 08:53	Lyonnais: Under crowd trouble i mean the fireworks in the Inter case are not as severe as Heysel. This was a true tragedy of course and I think UEFA was right to be harsh back then.

Author: panda
Date: 20-05-2006, 10:36

It is true that though abstractly, crowd trouble is better than fraud, unfortunately tragic deaths are a diffeent matter.

Gazzetta dello sport is stil doing a blow-by-blow update every day; but maybe the problem is going to be - the scandal is TOO BIG.

If there is one bad guy, then you can punish him; everyone feels good and everything is remains stable. If the proportion of people involved in bad things gets above a small one, then the true punishment becomes so big that the authorities shy away. Anyway, who knows yet.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 23-05-2006, 06:49	http://www.uefa.com/uefa/Keytopics/kind=64/newsId=423697.html Apparetnly it's now UEFA's case too! "We have to establish a contact with the commissioner, and then we have to take it from there, because there are some important decisions coming up," UEFA Chief Executive Lars-Christer Olsson told uefa.com. Interesting what pubishment there will be.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: zanzibar Date: 24-05-2006, 02:08	What will happen if italian clubs out of CL/UC this year? Which teams will in R1 at GS instead of 2 italian, champions of 11th and 12th country or 3rd teams of Spain and England?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 25-05-2006, 02:33

Looking for some financial info. on another thread, found a business report from the US (www.examiner.com) laying out what Juve stand to lose financially:

"One of Europe's top teams in terms of revenues, Juventus reported to analysts in March that sponsorship and TV broadcast rights deals comprised 69 percent of its revenues of $171 million in the first half of the 2005-06 season.

Cheuvreux rated the stock positively in a report last month, before the scandals broke, noting that Juventus had secured 70 percent of its revenue estimates for the next four years through a TV rights contract with Mediaset, controlled by former Premier Silvio Berlusconi's holding company, and long-term agreements with Nike Inc. as technical sponsor and Tamoil as league sponsor.

However, possible sanctions could endanger that revenue. Contracts with Mediaset and Sky, which has satellite broadcast rights, have clauses that allow the terms to be renegotiated if Juventus is relegated to a lower division, and Nike has the right to terminate the deal if Juventus does not compete in Serie A for two straight seasons - a possibility given that it might be put back to Serie C, Italy's third division.

Sky is contracted to pay $120 million for 2006-7 season satellite broadcast rights, while Mediaset is in the middle of a three-year $15 million deal for terrestrial digital, cable and ADSL rights and has new agreements worth $138 million in 2007-8 and $140 million in 2008-9, according to Juventus.

The 12-year partnership with Nike, starting from 2003, is for a guaranteed minimum of $239 million while Tamoil has a $130 million official sponsorship deal through June 2010".

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: leobertozzi Date: 25-05-2006, 19:52	According to media reports in Italy today, Lazio did not obtain a UEFA licence from FIGC. They can appeal until this Friday, waiting for a final decision on May 30.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 25-05-2006, 20:02	@leobertozzi Do you know if that means anything can be inferred about Juve and Fiorentina? Or just that no decision is made yet? I had a quick look on the on-line gazzetta dello sport, but I could not find anything concrete.

Author: STK
Date: 26-05-2006, 01:28

If this italian scandal match the dimension on which the press is present it, then it is ABSOLUTELY REQUIRED, like Italy to be suspended from inter-clubs competition for several years. This is requierd like an sanction, but also like a necesity for italian football to clean up. Any other alternative is unacceptable for the other FAs; if UEFA have still a minimum of decency then is the only direction that can be followed.

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 26-05-2006, 10:54

@STK

I'm not agree with you: the problem is not international, but national.
A lot of teams are clean, and they deserve their uefa spots.
The other ones have to be punished, hardly.
I hope people don't want to use this scandal to have more space for other nations in Europe...

@everyone

There is a big possibility that Italy leave its intertoto place free, 'cause it is absolutely impossile to have definitive sentence before july.
About CL and UC the real problem is to choose between seeded and unseeded team.
They can't make the draw using the expression "Italy1", "Italy2" and so on, 'cause there is a big difference between Milan, Juve, Chievo and Palermo...

Big news to come, I suppose...

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 26-05-2006, 11:08	@cptstrazza I agree with you; I think the fault is concentrated in a few teams and I suspect above all in the Moggi-godfather position. However, like you say, it is really important to punish the guilty teams severely. Relegation to Serie B is a minimum. Juve to Serie C would really hurt. Anyway, we rely on you to keep us informed quickly! Because only the result matters (as in football?!)

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 26-05-2006, 16:08

There is another alternative:

- all Italian clubs are qualified for the next European season based on their standings (juve, milan, inter and fiorentina in CL, etc.)

- should one of these be excluded of the European competitions because of the scandal, then it is not replaced by any Italian representant. e.g. should Juve be excluded, then it will be replaced by the champion of the 11th country in the group stage, etc.

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 26-05-2006, 17:34

There are least two examples of UEFA draws with unknown teams:

1) Draw for the 1st qualifying round of the Champions League 2001/2002. See Seeding in the Champions League 2001/2002: "Because the Hungarian championship was not finished at the day of the draw for the 2nd qualification round (June 22), the Hungarian champion Ferencvaros is treated as unseeded."

2) Draw for the 2nd qualifying round of the Champions League 2003/2004. See Seeding in the Champions League 2003/2004: "At the time of the draw the champion of Denmark was unknown. But nevertheless the champion was seeded on the value of the minimum coefficient of the two candidates: FC København and Brøndby IF."

Author: leobertozzi
Date: 27-05-2006, 05:54

@panda

no, the fact that Juve and Fiorentina are among teams with UEFA licences doesn't mean they're certain to be in Europe next season. they can still be out, depending on the ruling on the match-fixing investigations.

it appears that Lazio had a debt with an old employee, and having no debts of this kind is a requirement to get a UEFA licence. but they can still obtain the licence on appeal, I understand.

Author: Vesuvio
Date: 28-05-2006, 02:13

According latest news it seems that Uefa will allow Italian F3deration to give the names on 10 July but with the possibility to chenge them until 27 july.

The judge Borrelli (former prosecutor in big political scandal in '80 years) was chosen like the chief of inquiries and this seems a good thing since he hasn't any relationship with football world and would be a warranty to have a neutral and fair process.

Borrelli said that the first verdict will be before 10 july, while the appellation verdict will be before 27 july, so will be possible to have the list of Italian teams before th CL draw.

At this point Palermo will renounce to Intertoto, since is very probable that they will be in Uefa Cup or better in CL.

Italian rules say that is enough the attempt to fox a match to be relegated. If the fixing is repeated the team can be withdrawn by the teble and assigned to a lower division (serie C1 o C2 in his case)In this case we have a Juventus manager that decided the referees and that won a title with many fixed matches, and Fiorentina and Lazio arranged at least a coupleof matches.

The Milan situation is worsened after last phone tapes published, since appaear clear that a their collaborator (former referee) had a good realationship with the appointer of referee assistent and chose tigether the referee. In a phone calla Meini spoke in advance of two referee assistet thet they had in the two matches with Inter in last CL.

In another call, Meini make complaint regarding Juventus that would able to have always frielndly referees, and in that circustances spoke about De Bleeckere, the referee that was chosen for Liverpool-Juventus (anyway Juventus lost 1-2) andthat was considerated a "son" of Pairetto, the Uefa appointer.

According latter rumors Siena, Messina and Reggina (all teams controlled by Moggi) had a decisive help to avoid relegation, and could risk a relegation or a n heavy penalty.

Regarding Uefa licence, Lazio had not it for money problems but they will make appelation.

It's funny that Empoli, that whit relegation of the other teams could have an Uefa spot, won't partecipates since they never tought in this chance, having a bad siuation in the table and didn't ask for a licence.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: pla Date: 29-05-2006, 10:24	is it possible to haven't Italian clubs in european cup next year? In this case how the 7 spots would be shared?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 29-05-2006, 11:26 Edited by: Nick at: 29-05-2006, 11:27	pla: I guess it's unlikely that all italian clubs will miss Europe next season. If this happens then some teams will get a free ticket to the groups in both the CL and the UEFA Cup. It's relatively easy to arrange it.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 29-05-2006, 11:35	What would you say is the proper punishment for a scandal of this magnitude? Is "5 years out of Eurocups so you can clean up your mess" too harsh? Coz I think this is just the top of the iceberg of mafia in italian football. To me this means that Italian championships are fraud by default. Who knows how many years this has been going on.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 29-05-2006, 11:43	Ignjat: I agree with you but I simply don't think UEFA will have the guts to enforce such a punishment. The problem is the italian TV market and it's possible loss. 15 years ago it was not a problem to punish english clubs, because football was not that comercial.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 29-05-2006, 11:53

It is very true and part of the story we talked about - money these days killing sport. This is a perfect example. As we say in these parts - "Mountain was shaking - a mouse was born". Meaning in the end it will be much ado about nothing really. And for the big bosses Moggi is just another expendable pawn.

And it is in other sports too. There is an on going scandal in Spain about doping in cycling. Those Giro dItalia commentators were very shaken indeed talking about that.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-05-2006, 13:12

Individual clubs should be punished where guilt is proven. I hope the most guilty are relegated and the rest get points deductions and no European football next season as a minimum.

Will it happen? I don't know - I can only say I hope so.

I may be courting controversy here but I have to make comments about the indignant reaction of some posters on here. Is Romanian football totally clean? Serbian?

I see Ceahlaul will be back in the top flight next year. Let's hope their "trade home wins" cartel is a thing of the past. [Behind the Iron Curtain - Travels in Eastern European Football by Jonathan Wilson>. And mafia involvement in Serbian football is a "fact" I've read on this thread more than once - from Serbian posters.

Maybe it's a cultural difference but stories of club owners waving wadges of cash as "incentive" payments to clubs playing their opponents would lead to assumptions of other types of pay-offs and lengthy enquiries here while they seem like "normal behaviour" elsewhere.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 29-05-2006, 13:19	Actually, badger, I'll be first to admit that if Serbia was a country of law and order our football would probably even cease to exist. But Italy? And I am not indignant. Cheers.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 29-05-2006, 13:25	Badgerboy: It may seem strange to you but in Bulgaria 3 clubs were relegated in the last 10 years for match fixing. I know there are more that fix matches but it's a start.

Author: executor
Date: 29-05-2006, 13:32

Wow!! I didn't know Ceahlãul is so famous!!

.I didn't read that book, but you must know that Ceahlãul was always no.2 in this business. The indisputed champion is Gloria

. As long as this team will be in first league, it'll never be clean. It's true they made "improvements", but they're not a clean team yet. Other teams have "stains", but this is almost entirely due to the fact they came into contact with "Dracula" team. (Coincidence: The city of Bistrita is the place where the castle in Bram Stoker's book is located

).

Another problem is that the authorities are too weak. For instance: Steaua's punishment. Even if the UEFA regulations say that a team should get (for racist chants) a stadium ban, a fine AND point deduction, Steaua only "got" the first two. By this the authorities recognised that they are guilty, but couldn't apply the law. Why? Because the owner of Steaua (his name should not be mentioned anymore!) was in the room shouting that there will be a revolution if Steaua would lose points.

That's the biggest problem in Romania: lack of authority....

Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-05-2006, 14:33

Executor

Actually I only skim read the Romania Chapter in a bookshop the other day. I'm too stingy to pay out for the hardback and paperback version isn't out yet! I did know Gloria (and a number of other named clubs were involved). The very fact Ceahlaul managed to get relegated was seen as a positive sign of improvement!

I don't know much about the Steaua "racist chanting" case but it's unfortunately normal pretty much everywhere that it's harder to punish "big clubs" than "small" for similar misdemeanours. So, Chelsea and Man Utd would be far more likely to get away with some misdemeanour in England than a Championship side as would Steaua or one of the other big clubs in Romania as opposed to Pitesti otr Bacau.

In England this year - way down the leagues in the Conference - Altrincham got deducted 18 points (and were relegated) due to some mix-up over player registration. They actually bought the player (James Robinson) from Accrington Stanley (who were responsible for getting the necessary International clearance and didn't). Accrington won the Conference and were fined £200 for their part in the affair....

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: MalcolmW Date: 29-05-2006, 15:55	In fairness, Accrington had not used the player in their first team (only the reserve team). 18 points is certainly excessive - but I thought 15 of that was because the Altrincham chairman spent last summer driving the Aussie cricket team round the country(?).

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 29-05-2006, 16:37

@pla
is it possible to haven't Italian clubs in european cup next year?

In this case how the 7 spots would be shared?

Most likely this would result in the following shift of teams:

There are 2 spots (Juventus and AC Milan) open in CL R1, so the champions of countries 11 and 12 (Turkey and Czech Rep) would move on to R1.

There are 4 spots open in CL QR3 (the 2 teams above and Inter and Fiorentina), so the champions of countries 17-20 (Serbia, Poland, Switzerland and Norway) would move on to QR3.

There are 4 spots open in CL QR2, so the champions of countries 28-35 (Slovenia, Cyprus, Bosnia, Latvia, Finland, Moldova, Georgia and Lithuania) would move on to QR2, which leaves only 14 teams in QR1.

In the UEFA-cup there will be 3 spots open in R1, so the 1st UEFA-cup team of countries 15-17 (Ukraine, Israel and Serbia) will move on to QR2 and the 1st UEFA-cup team of countries 21-26 (Bulgaria, Croatia, Denmark, Hungary, Romania and Sweden) will move on to QR2.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: kurt Date: 29-05-2006, 16:49	keep on dreaming

Author: STK
Date: 29-05-2006, 17:10

I see that some people insist with their frustrations. Again is not about "racist songs" it is about insulting songs. UEFA stated very clear that this matters are from the local disciplinary comisions' competence. I see that article 55 from FIFA Disciplinary Code, have the SAME sanctions for insults like for racist manifestations, and this sanctions can conclude to points deduction (3p, then 6p) and even team relegation. This is ridiculous of course, but if that article would have applay ad literam, ALL the teams from romanian first division should be relegated, because this kind of insults are part from every gallery repertoir, inclusive Rapid, Dinamo and little teams. Then, i saw this kind of manifestations largely used, in italian football to, too Lazio, AS Roma, because this is a topic about italian teams.

Badgerboy, in romanian championship, the richest teams have the more fines, no one give to little teams, more sanctions than to bigger teams, even for the same kind of disciplinary contraventions.

What Rapid try to do now it is absolutley patethic, for the same kind of habbit that they are guilty to every match (include the romanian Cup) they try to obtain a points deduction for the title contender. Steaua also make a complain to the disciplinary comision, which will be judged today, with video proofs that incriminate Rapid players, fans for the same kind of behaveoir, and Rapid will have to face the same sancion. Steaua have been already sanctioned with fine and last match stadium ban, so it is Rapid turn. One of the reason, for which Rapid fans are called "gipsyes" for this kind of behaviour, totally lack of fair-play, trying to win the title with extra-footballistic factors, not regarding their origins, regarding their low character, and they will be called that way until they will change this behaviour, even UEFA or FIFA like it or not. And this is not racism.

About Cheahlaul, Gloria, teams from romanian championship that is suspected that they do not play fairly, Ceahlaul against Dinamo, and Gloria against Rapid, they haven't been caught with anyting until now. Ceahlaul haven't been relegated like a suspention, but purely competitional. To give this kind of suspention you need proof, players/coaches admiting, video proof, phone recordings (like in Italy), otherwise it remain just theoretical, we see the non-combat in the field but just that. Nobody admit anything, and they say they had a bad day. I am curious to know if, anywhere in the world, this kind of suspention could be give only based on the match display ???

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: STK Date: 29-05-2006, 17:26 Edited by: STK at: 29-05-2006, 17:27	@Forza-AZ, If the two italian teams do not recive the 2 CL spots with direct access, it is ridiculous to be used by other teams (even italian). The 2 spots must be earned trough q rounds. Same with UC spots.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 30-05-2006, 08:42

If, as is mentioned by someone earlier in this topic, decision only falls at July 27th, then first qualification rounds are already finished. It would seem very strange then somehow to let teams that lost suddenly play on. How would they decide which teams? the loser teams with the highest coefficients? No I don't think Uefa is considering leaving out all Italian teams. Only that 1 or more might be punished.
What I don't understand is that there also was matchfixing in Uefa(CL)-matches. Uefa should react on that, not wait on the Italian FA to punish a team and then maybe give a little extra punishment to them.

By the way. Maybe this fraude is already going on for 10 years, but also by several parties. Probably Milan and Juve both paid the same referee for fixing matches. Who paid most was helped to win (or maybe the referee did nothing).
The ones that profited the most were the referees! Especially those should be banned for life (what a problem they will have in italy then)

I'm already looking forward to the outcome (on the other way: who tells me the outcome isn't bought??)

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: pla Date: 30-05-2006, 10:27 Edited by: pla at: 30-05-2006, 10:27	except if italian league take big harsh, uefa won't pass up the league first, no?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 30-05-2006, 11:15	But who will play Intertoto?

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 30-05-2006, 12:31
Edited by: cptstrazza
at: 30-05-2006, 12:32

HEY PEOPLE!!!

You are forgetting how things work in the european cups:
the Italian federation will communicate the names of the
qualified teams to the UEFA, and not the contrary!

If Juventus will be relegated, it means that it has arrived
last in the championship.
The same for Milan, Fiorentina and Lazio.

This means that the italian season could finish in this way:

1) Inter
2) Roma
3) Chievo
4) Palermo

It is stupid to think about places for other nations, 'cause
Italy will give to the UEFA the 4 names necessary to fit the
4 spots, 2 in the groups and 2 in the third round.

So if Juve and Milan won't partecipate to the cups, this will happen not for an UEFA decision: the decision come directly from italian federation (FGCI).

I repeat:
it is a national problem, not international.

Italy will have all its teams in the cups, with the only exception of intertoto, 'cause the trials will finish only in the middle part of July.

I hope my explanation is clear enough.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 30-05-2006, 12:48	Is it certain that there won't be an Italian team in the Intertoto? Because that would mean that a few teams would move up one round, most likely in this way: -Hibernian would take the place of the Italian team in R3 -the Romanian team would take the place of Hibernian in R2 -a 2nd Spanish team would take the place of the Romanian team in R1

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 30-05-2006, 13:59	But, Forza, that would mean that the regional groupings are broken at 2 spots(Hibernian in South and Dinamo? in North). Maybe it's just: Bulgarion team to R3, Romanian team to R2 and the second Spanish team will have to fight the Macedonian team?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 30-05-2006, 15:07

I posted something about the Intertoto places on another thread but can't find it now.

ForzaAZ is probably right about the changes - but if UEFA do stick to the geographical regions I'd say it's more likely that the Turkish team would take the "Italy" spot in R3 and the Romanian team the "Turkey" spot in R2.

Anyway, maybe a lowly placed Italian team (Sampdoria or Udinese?) might take the Intertoto spot if Palermo don't want it?

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 30-05-2006, 15:25

The problem is not Palermo...
The problem is that in Italy nobody knows what will
be the final position, before having the sentence of
the sport judges.
Nobody want to start intertoto cup, if there is a little
possibility to partecipate to UEFA cup.
An example:
Palermo now should be in intertoto.
But they can partecipate to uefa cup if Juventus will be
relegated in serie b.
If Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina receive the same penalty,
Palermo would be in the Champions League Q3 round.
IT= starting trainings in June
UC= " " in August
CL(Q3)= " " in July

That's why nobody will join IT, and Italy will pay the fee...
The only possibility would be a definitive sentence in 15 days,
and it is absolutely impossible.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: pla Date: 30-05-2006, 15:48	sorry but if it's a national problem, why italian referre don't go to WC? tell it to swenden champion if it's a national problem...

Author: badgerboy
Date: 30-05-2006, 16:42
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 30-05-2006, 16:52

Sorry cptstrazza

I realise that the problem is not with Palermo. Perhaps I made a bad choice of words. I simply meant that there might be an Italian team wanting to play Intertoto that is so far down the league that - even if all four teams under investigation are kicked out of Europe - they couldn't possibly get a UEFA Cup spot out of it. A bit like the situation when a league is due to finish after the deadline for applications and only teams with no mathematical possibility of qualifying for the UEFA Cup or CL are allowed to put their name down for the Intertoto.

Pla

CPTstrazza is also correct that - at least for the moment - the Italians are dealing with a national problem. I guess UEFA might look at any specific allegations regarding events in their own competitions at a later date but I'd say they are correct to leave the primary action to the relevant national association. Perhaps though, with all the allegations around Europe this year some kind of centralised "task force" to look at all alleged instances of match-fixing specifically (as opposed to other financial irregularities) might not be a bad idea.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 30-05-2006, 17:24

Lets take the most radical situation in which all 4 teams are relegated. then you would get this table:

1.Internazionale CL R1
2.AS Roma CL R1
3.Chieveo CL QR3
4.Palermo CL QR3
5.Livorno UEFA R1
6.Empoli UEFA R1
7.Parma UEFA R1
8.Ascoli
9.Udinese
10.Sampdoria
11.Reggina
12.Cagliari
13.Siena
14.Messina relegated?
15.Lecce relegated?
16.Treviso relegated?
17.Juventus relegated
18.AC Milan relegated
19.Fiorentina relegated
20.Lazio relegated

Parma is the lowest team that can get UEFA-cup, so all teams from Ascoli to Siena can't get UEFA-cup no matter what, so 1 of them could play Intertoto

Author: panda
Date: 30-05-2006, 17:26
Edited by: panda
at: 30-05-2006, 17:27

The offence is very big, so the punishment should be very big.

But it's true what other posters have said - banning english clubs for 5 yrs (which is something where for sure the innocent paid for the guilty as well as the guilty for themselves) was in a climate where the TV structure was no important, so irrespective of whether uefa feel there have been offences in cl/uc matches, we are surely going to see punishment against clubs, not against the country.

However, just relegation is a big punishment for a club like Juve = no CL for 2 seasons (I guess you could get CW place for UC from Serie B), and potential loss of players making it possible it will take more than just the 2 seasons to promote again and to be in top placings.

So what would be a less severe punishment than something like what English clubs suffered could still have a big effect.

One more question - how many promote from Serie B? is it 3?
if you relegate 4 to serie B, that would mean one of them would not promote, making it a very bitterly contested Serie B next season.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 30-05-2006, 17:38

Panda

Yes - three promote from Serie B. Although - in the very unlikely event of all four teams being relegated - I wouldn't be surprised to see a sudden expansion (to 22 teams) - or maybe they might play Serie A with 18 teams next year and re-expand next year to 20.

ForzaAz - your prognosis is correct. The only possible difference is that elsewhere on here I read that Empoli had failed to obtain a license for European football (or had not bothered to apply) so - unless some dispensation was made given the circumstances - they would miss out too.

Author: panda
Date: 30-05-2006, 18:09

@ignjat63; badgerboy

well- I'm pretty indignant, to pick up that set of posts I did not read till now.

However, I am not at all surprised Italian football turns out to be so corrupt.

a) As we saw from the clean-up of Italian political life in the early 90s, no reason why football should not have the same disease as the rest of the society

b) As we see from thousand of comments about Italy (including that recent Vialli book), Italy is the country of the city state andof Machiavelli, so there is a history of political calculation / machination of every kind.

c) There were many, many stories for decades about what was happening before the investigation came out now.

But I should say also, I am a big fan of Italian culture, Italian people and football (well, maybe except for catenaccio) so to say there are bad and guilty people does not mean there are not also many more good and clean people, including the footballers who now have to represent Italy in the WC under this shadow.

Author: STK
Date: 30-05-2006, 18:41

I still don't understand why other teams should take place to the ipotetical relegated teams. If it is decided like Italy to not be punished, the italian teams should all begin competition from the first q rounds CL and UC, at least.

Why to give direct access to some teams that do not earn it. Or i should assume that teams like Inter and AS Roma in fairly conditions would have taken the places 1th and 2nd? And i also must assume that Palermo and Chievo, in an fair system would won the 3th and 4th CL spots?

I'm sorry but this is a total disregrading for the competition, and prooves that UEFA do not care if the best teams go in the competition, but all the teams from top countries have some privileges not regfarding their value, of course if this will happen.

I have all the respect for italian media and even authorities, who decided to start this investigation, even if this would bring damage to italian football image, but if the sanction will not be acordingly to the fact, then is pointless.

In another words, italian top teams, AC Milan and Juventus, teams that are responsable for the biggest contribution to Italy's country coefficient, are relegated, their performances are questionable, but Italy will use further their contribution, and replace mechanical with another teams (who, from which i know can be guilty by the same habbits, because the investigation is not over). Is this real?

This is wrong juridical, sportiv and moral.

Italy, must take at least a year break from the european competitions, and to present the CL spots and UC spots only for 2007-2008, that would be WIN hopefully correct that time. The investigation is not over yet, and UEFA require to italian FAs the teams for CL and UC spots. What is this? Circus?

I sympatise with the italian desire like other nation to not benefit for the italian places and i know this feeling from the moment UEFA decide to give place 2nd, 3rd and 4th access in CL, on the economical bases, CL places that have been took from other champions, but come on, i think that you have a little situation there, with 3 of the best teams threated with relegation ... how acurate is in these conditions the Italy's coefficient who give 4CL and 3UC?

There is proof on tape about international matches, CL matches, with "good one" refferees, but this is not of the essence. From the moment in which teams like Juve and Milan "won" titles and spots on unfair bases, their all european presence and potential performance are questionable. Other teams that should won corectly the italian championship, maby would have different performances and coefficients.

The two situations, internal cometition and european competition, cannot be disociated, a team cannot play dirty in one and corect in another, because their all presence in the european competition is dirty, undesreved and unprooven. It is possible that in place of these teams, to have been participate other italian team, corectly, and even with bigger performances, but this is not a thing that can be assumed, and is not foul of the other FAs, but to italian FA, and they should support the consequences. It is useless to say that this kind influence over the reffs could not be realisesed without the reffs comision, and the reffs disciplinary forums that must sanction the reffs for their mistakes, all members to the italian FA.

About UEFA, is no need to say again how ignorant they are for the competiton, and how tolerant they are regarding the top FAs, their every day decisons speak for that. I don't think that exist another organisation to make a discrimination to a such scale.

Author: panda
Date: 30-05-2006, 18:59

For once (!) I am going to say - I have big sympathy for what STK writes.

I bet if it were up to me (as an non-Italian), I would punish the Italians more heavily than the punishment the figc will actually give its own teams.

I know uefa are talking to figc, therefore uefa punishment is possible, although I agree, unlikely.

But what is the position in terms of rules? Say you relegate team A and decide team B, that finished 2nd, in fact is champion, and team C tha finished 3rd, is 2nd, and so on. Then I presume figc is complying with the rules. In a race where someone is disqualified, the person who is 2nd is the winner, not still 2nd. So in that case we can say that no bending of rules occurs.

However, morally it is very true - teams that were not good enough to compete in Europe get the chance to do so. Because we cannot say that just because -say- Chievo did not cheat, otherwise they would have come above Juve.

On the other hand, an Italy with weakened teams will surely score lower co-eff. You can even argue that the replacement teams will LOWER the average co-eff than if you keep the 'clean' teams and do not let in the 'lucky losers.'

I agree - too much to expect uefa to ban ALL It teams, even for 1 yr.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 30-05-2006, 20:17	The question is more about the credability and integrity of Serie A, the CL and the UEFA Cup. If Juve and the others get away with this there will be no way UEFA or any federation will be able to enforce punishments for similar occasions in the future. It will be a free ticket for everybofy to buy and sell matches at will.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 30-05-2006, 20:25	If UEFA is waiting for italian fa to appoint the clubs, obviously UEFA is not going to punish Italian FA. Of course, Italian coeff is going to plummet down next year (and perhaps the year after) but that is not the punishment. It is the consequence of Italian fa's steps and it is entirely another thing. So I do not think UEFA is going to punish Italy at all.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 30-05-2006, 20:44	I don't understand why any other italian club should be punished than those which are found guilty of match fixing. The proper italian clubs are the victims of the match fixings. Why should they be banned?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 30-05-2006, 20:53 Edited by: ignjat63 at: 30-05-2006, 20:54	Italian football should be punished as a whole because Moggi was setting up referees for Eurocups matches also.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 30-05-2006, 21:00	...and also trying to manipulate the dutch championship by telling Ibrahimovic not to score for Ajax so his price can fall a bit.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 30-05-2006, 21:35	{i>Italian football should be punished as a whole because Moggi was setting up referees for Eurocups matches also.{/i> I think you mean Pairetto, not Moggi. Moggi was not an Italian official.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 30-05-2006, 21:41	I suppose you are right. But Moggi was pressing for that. Wasn't he on the other end of the phone?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 30-05-2006, 22:33 Edited by: ferdi at: 30-05-2006, 22:35	{i>I suppose you are right. But Moggi was pressing for that. Wasn't he on the other end of the phone?{/i> But the question was why ban Italy. Moggi was not acting as a responsible Italian official, so you can't base any penalty for Italy on his behaviour.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 30-05-2006, 22:40	But Poiretto is. Is not he Italian? And did not Poiretto, pressured by Moggi, decide on the ref for Juve-Djurgarden match? Maybe that is not enough to punish Italy but what would you suggest UEFA does about that? Nothing really?

Author: ferdi
Date: 30-05-2006, 22:47
Edited by: ferdi
at: 31-05-2006, 09:44

{i>But Poiretto is. Is not he Italian?{/i>

Therefore I said: I think you mean Pairetto.

{i>And did not Poiretto, pressured by Moggi, decide on the ref for Juve-Djurgarden match?{/i>

Did he? It would be quite surprising that an Italian {i>decides{/i> the referee for a European match of an Italian club. And BTW, what was wrong with that decision, whoever made it? After all Moggi did not get the referee he wanted, see the phone call cited earlier in this thread, where he complains about the referee.

As I understand it, Pairetto's offense was leaking confidential preliminary imformations to Moggi about the referees in Euroean matches. Moreover I ask myself whether he was send by Italy and representing Italy in the Uefa Referees' Commission, or was he just an Italian who was called into this comission by UEFA?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ignjat63 Date: 30-05-2006, 23:00	I think all follows from those phone transcripts.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Lyonnais Date: 30-05-2006, 23:06	why would all Italians clubs be banned ? it is really double punishment for the ones that have not cheated. They are twice victims. Victim of match fixing in Italy and guilty to be Italian at European level. That's not my conception of justice really.

Author: ferdi
Date: 30-05-2006, 23:41

{i>it is really double punishment for the ones that have not cheated.{/i>

Why {i>double punishment{/i>, and for which offense? I see only a single punishment of the viction of an offense, thus unjustified. I wouldn't call being a victim of the initial offense itself a punishment. Being a victim is just bad luck and unfair. It can sometimes be called a punishment, but only in cases where you regard the victim guilty to some extend.

Author: STK
Date: 31-05-2006, 00:30

I see a series of ilogical "why"? I have aslo few ... but for later.

From organisatoric reasons, that's one reason, because the investigation could last more than the data in which the teams should be announced to UEFA, investigation that could bring another names and teams part from this system, even from the teams that will participate for Italy.

Then is not a double ban, all the teams that are in the list, Inter, AS Roma, Palermo, Chievo, ..., benefit from the other teams "relegation", it is ridiculous to speak about double ban VS nothing. The current italian season, at least, have been compromised, so the results are irelevant, because wasn't disputed corectly. Here we cannot applay the principle with discalification, because is probably very hard to establish which matches have been played corectly and which not, which points have been taken corectly and which not. This is more a necesity for Italy to take a year break, than a sanction-ban.

Then, i'm sorry that you not follow the investigation, but the clubs relegated have just a part of guilt; the major guilt is over the italinan officials from FAs, who are responsable with refferee delegation, so italian FAs is the most guilty in this situation, so it is requierd a sanction for all the league organisated by the italian FAs, along with the suspention like necesity. Of course other clubs that have nothing to do with this are kind of victims, but they are also part of italian FAs, so they must assume the responsabity for the actions of the corupt people they vote for.

What about teams replacement, what if 80% from italian first divions clubs, are relegated? We bring teams from Serie B to replace them in CLGS?. It is ridiculous to flood the european competition, with weak and mediocre teams, teams that do not won a spot in a corect disputed championship. Maby you have some information that the specifird teams would have won a fair competiton and you don't want to show them. Or maby you are some kind of prophets, because this is the usual "ocupation" of the most forum contributors.

Then Italy have no problem to use the coefficients bring by Juve, Milan, Lazio, teams that will be relegated because they've gone in Europe by destroying other teams competitional rights ??? Sorry, but from the coefficient perspectiv, Juve, Milan, Lazio are the VICTIMS, and the italian FAs, is the one who used them to reach a high coefficient.

No, it is wrong. This is another negative effect of the seeding system/direct access. The system tyranny have been expained on another topic, but the UEFA official stupidity, that decided to give a seeding statute to a country spot and not to a individual team, cannot be explain.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-05-2006, 11:41	A solution might be to scrap all results of the 4 teams (if they are relegated) and make a final standing with the 30 matches between the 16 teams that acted correctly and divide the CL and UEFA-cup places according to this table.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 31-05-2006, 11:48	Yes- a better solution in technical terms- but my guess is they will let results stand. I notice Capello said he was confident Juve would stay in Serie A and they were already 'working towards that' (how? bribery, maybe?), but I also guess he HAS to say that.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 31-05-2006, 12:36 Edited by: ferdi at: 31-05-2006, 13:03	I think we should leave the decisions about consequences to the Italians. So far I see no match fixings, but only {i>Raccomandazioni{/i>, what I have read to be quite typical in the Italian society. So it's very much the {i>Italian way of life{/i>. Italy is neither a tiny nor a post-communist country, so who are we to claim to judge about them?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 31-05-2006, 12:53	Anybody already calculated the Italian coefficient without the 4 implicated teams?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: ferdi Date: 31-05-2006, 13:31 Edited by: ferdi at: 31-05-2006, 20:12	Ricardo wrote: {i>Anybody already calculated the Italian coefficient without the 4 implicated teams?{/i> {pre> season coeff with 4 coeff without 4 2001/2002 12.571 14.333 2002/2003 15.928 10.625 2003/2004 8.875 8.000 2004/2005 14.000 10.875 2005/2006 15.357 13.700 sum 66.731 57.533 {/pre>means 3rd place instead of 2nd place, i. e. practically no changes.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Francisco Date: 31-05-2006, 18:27	@Ferdi How can the first year coefficient be bigger without the 4 teams, than it is with them??? That makes no sense! The only way for that to happen would be if you were also reducing the number of teams from Italy, but that isn't fair you should account all teams, considering a null contribution by those 4 teams!

Author: ferdi
Date: 31-05-2006, 18:43

The number of points collected from all teams of a country is divided by the number of starting teams of that country. So if the 4 teams in question get in some year less points than italian average, then the coefficient increases if you recalculate the coefficient without those teams.

This was the case in 2001/2002: 7 teams got 88 points, means 12.571 average. But if you count out Milan, Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina, then you have left 3 teams (Roma, Parma, Inter) which got 43 points, means 14.333 average.

{i>you should account all teams, considering a null contribution by those 4 teams!{/i>

Nice try

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 31-05-2006, 21:15	I have to agree with Ferdi's reasoning(thanks for the calcualtions) on this. Though this is not a real punishment. This also shows that Italy does not need to be punished as a whole. Other teams, not implicated, did also very well and received enough points to get to the top 3 of the country ranking

Author: cptstrazza
Date: 01-06-2006, 10:57

My dear friends, I appreciate your posts, with different proposals and solutions, but maybe you don't know very well how justice works in Italy.

1) the telephone calls are only about the 2004/2005 season.
I know that probably the corruption has continued in the last season, but sport judges have to decide using evidences, not only on ideas.

2) if some team will be relegated, the following ones will climb the hit, and it could be possible that Internazionale win the scudetto

3) the problem is not Italy, but some italian teams

4) the real corruption started from Moggi and Juventus

5) Fiorentina and Milan tried to react to this power, taking contacts with the refeerees' chiefs, fighting Moggi's power, so their position is different.

6) De Santis, refeeree for the world cup, won't partecipate to Germany2006: the decision came from FGCI not from FIFA.

7) Italy will partecipate to the cups with 7 teams: the ones not involved in the scandal.

8) If Pairetto tried to arrange referees for Juve-Djurgardens, the problem is for Juventus, not for all the italian football.

9) UEFA's position is clear, 'cause they asked to FGCI to communicate the names of italian teams: no reason to punish teams like Internazionale and Roma, Palermo and Chievo. They have played honestly, and that's why they finished the season in third, fourth position, and so on.

10) I think that a lot of people dream about a champions league without italian teams, to reach higher coefficient for their countries. Fair play, guys...

Author: panda
Date: 01-06-2006, 11:30

Hi cptsrazza,

Thanks for the very clear post (in gazzetta dello sport there's so much stuff now it's much more complicated to follow).

As an English fan I don't care what Italian teams play from a football-istic point of view, since we managed to get parity with Italian teams. But the punishment of individual teams would be good for me, because I have a traditionally English sense of 'fair play.'

It's good to see from the co-efficient calculation that there is not a big difference between the co-effs without the 'guilty' teams.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: pla Date: 01-06-2006, 11:40	if milan and juve will go on 2nd league they will be auto-banished. They could go on european cup in leagueB but imagine the team if juve goes to 2nd league. Can we think the team negociate his spot with another team?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Nick Date: 01-06-2006, 11:41	cptstrazza: What happens with Intertoto now?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Francisco Date: 01-06-2006, 14:21	@ Ferdi and Ricardo Sorry for bringing this back, but reducing from 7 to 3 teams isn't a punishment! The coefficient should be calculated with 7 teams considering that the 4 punished teams get 0 points!!!! That's the way to make it fair for everyone: this isn't just about Italy, this is about all other countries that didn't got further in Europe and didn't earn as much money as they should!

Author: skivaz
Date: 01-06-2006, 15:44
Edited by: skivaz
at: 01-06-2006, 16:04

to Nick.
to my knowledge and according to the latest news, Italy will renounce to its Intertoto place, waiting for the sentence to nominate the teams participating to UEFA and CL.

To everybody:
latest news, in an interview an important judge said that Juventus is seriously risking Serie B - and also Serie C - the only other team directly invoved is Fiorentina (that may be penalised if Juve in B, or relegated in B if Juve in C), Lazio and Milan are only partially involved and they get only a penalisation, or a fee)

Author: ferdi
Date: 01-06-2006, 16:20

Francisco wrote:

{i>Sorry for bringing this back, but reducing from 7 to 3 teams isn't a punishment!{/i>

Who talked about a punishment? We do not want any Italian team to be punished which is not proven to be guilty.

It was a purely theoretical question what the Italian coefficient would be without Milan, Juve, Lazio and Fiorentina. The idea was merely that the Italian clubs shouldn't draw any benefit from any kind of unjustified success of the accused clubs.

In fact, so far I see no reason at all to count out results from 2001/2002 up to 2004/2005 of any team, because the season in question is the domestic season of Italy 2004/2005, which did only influence the European results of Italy in 2005/2006.

Author: panda
Date: 01-06-2006, 17:34
Edited by: panda
at: 01-06-2006, 17:57

I agree -

the two 'famous' examples from the Moggi tapes are about Ibrahimovich and Djugarden. In both cases the PROOF is only that Moggi TRIED to do something.

Ibrahimovich obviously played well - Moggi was angry becasue he had wanted him to play badly.

In case of Djugarden, Moggi did NOT get the ref he wanted.

If uefa (or figc) can prove wrong-doing in other euro matches, that is one thing; as it is, what looks as if it can be proved is wrong-doing in domestic ties (this as a system of 'favours' is much easier to comprehend anyway; in a league you are sure to meet the same teams again)

Punishing Italy JUST through co-eff is only something that would happen if uefa was run by people obsessed by co-effs like this forum.

tonight (Thurs 1st June) BBC Radio 5 live 1900-2200 (I don't know if for all of this time) special report on Moggiopoli called 'The Big Fix'

Author: Ricardo
Date: 01-06-2006, 17:59

Francisco,
The re-calculation of the coefficients for me are not the punishment. THAT should consist of a team not letting play in CL or UC for 1 or more years.
The recalculation is necessary because a team has to be removed from all the match-results of the last years, as their matches were not played fair, so should not count(problem is their opponents ofcourse)
So indeed recalucalting is not a punishment, but it is not intended to be.(I think)

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 01-06-2006, 18:38	Breaking news: Fifa to investigate Arsenal over reports that they have secretly been controlling Belgian club Beveren.

Author: STK
Date: 01-06-2006, 22:03

I must agree with francisco, that a kind of punisment is needed for Italy like a whole, because important members of the Italian FAs have been found implicated in this story, and the number of teams is not one, but more, a whole sustem of coruption. It is necesarely this, in the desire to not encourage this acts along the european FAs.

I see that some people who are usualy big fans of the country-teams solidarity, country contribution, now, are very revolted that some teams from the same FAs can be punished unfairly. I have 2 observations, that must be considerate in the same time:

1) for so long a club is part of a FA, they are responsabile for the act of people they vote for in this organism; it is not about punisment, it is about responsability;

2) then nobody punish anyone but the guilty italina FA; i agree that Italy should not be banned like a whole, but they must loose some european spots (at least 1CL and one 1UC), and in this situation the other clean clubs, i don't see how they are punished ... there will be still a lot of spots for the performat teams to participate in Europe. Or what? Italy was born with 4 CL and 3 UC spots? They are the permanent owner? The italian guy speak in a way, that make me feel guity of stealing italian spots ... lol, grow up!

This year, i repeat, not like a ban, but Italy should loose the CL spots that were "won" by Juve and Milan, without being replace by other teams (and this is fair-play for other teams/FAs, look for a dictionary). It is not normal to be replace by other teams, that did not won the respective spots. This is how responsability works. Next year they will have full rights to win the current spots in a correct disputed championship.

I say again, that the italian FA do not get a minimal punisment for the action of his officials, that compromited italian league, this diseased will spread to all Europe, because one of the main reason of a punisment is to serve like exmple to others not to follow.

About the incriminated clubs, if they are not suspended from Europe for at least 5 years and just relegated to Serie B or C (meneanig 1 or 2 year suspention, or even 0 if they win the italian Cup) it is a CAPITAL CRIME. After so strong proof, which is so hard to produce, and very easy punisments, we will have hundreds of Moggi very soon poluting the european clubs and FAs.

Again, i must say, that this action of the italian clubs, are also alimentated by the UEFA's discriminatory seeding system, which offers some club direct access in competition, and the tentation of the CL milions are very big, a team do not have to proove his accesd in a competition with qualification rounds, and if a team has influential means in the domestic championship, this will surely be used.

Fight against the seeding system, fight for fair-play!
Now i really begin to sound like a revolurionar.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Garve Date: 01-06-2006, 22:43	Hi Skivaz What have you heard about Italy and the Intertoto. We are still waiting to hear if Inverness CT will get into the Intertoto - they seem to be 1st reserve.

Author: skivaz
Date: 02-06-2006, 00:54
Edited by: skivaz
at: 02-06-2006, 11:13

Hi Garve,
i've telling you what i'm reading in all italian national newspapers...
the enquiry for establish the teams who 'did the mess' it will be as short as possible but there is no way that it can finish for the end of June before the intertoto begins. So they said that Italy will renounce to the Intertoto spot, because is impossible to know which team can take place in the competition.
Said this, i don't know if there it will be still time to add Inverness (by the way very nice town, been there!!!) or they just will give a bye to the next team in the list.
Hope you can take that place, though.
bye

Author: badgerboy
Date: 02-06-2006, 16:09

Garve

This "reserve" thing is a bit confusing but I think Inverness should only be "first reserve" in the event of one of the countries due to start in R2 not entering a team, so the Italy situation might not affect them.

On the other hand it isn't totally beyond the realms of possibility that none of the top 8 countries have a team that fancies starting their season in mid-June in which case Inverness might benefit...

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Garve Date: 02-06-2006, 19:28	Thanks Guys, very confusing indeed. By the way Skivaz, I'm not an Inverness CT fan. I support their local rivals Ross County - wonder if this is the first time they've been mentioned on this forum.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: onisilos Date: 02-06-2006, 22:54	According to a greek journalist I know who is in Italy it is almost a certainty that Juve will be relegated and apparently Juve is looking for a coach

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: skivaz Date: 03-06-2006, 02:41	Onisilos. Yes is true, not only a trainer but also a new d.g. and the all administration council. For the technical part it seems they have contatcted the coach and d.g. of Sampdoria. but is not official yet... did you really think that Capello agreed to go in second division? seems instead that he will go back to Madrid.

Author: dave_sheffield
Date: 03-06-2006, 12:49

I am back here after long time and i havent read the whole thread.... What i just want to put under attention is that what is coming out here in Italy is that EVERYBODY tried to broke rules to have favours back from refrees. Now the attention is concentrated on Juventus cause Moggi mobile was under control, but in last days also Milan position became not so clear, and i would be very surprised if also Inter will not be involved. And in the lower divisions it was exactly the same. I am a Monza fan (currently in 3rd division) and i can assure that many strange things have also happened at this level. The problem is to have the "smoking gun" of it. So if some team will be not touch by the justice is for poor luck.... once said this u can understand that find a solution is not easy: it's like deciding the arrive of 100 m when all 8 runners were using doping: to decide who use more doping i dont know if it's possible.

This about refrees, if someone check financial movements of italian teams will be even worst.... the only hope is that this time something really change....

Sorry if i was too long.
About europe i think that considering the few time there is, in my opionion only logical solution would be:
1)respect the final results (so Juve and Fiorentina playing in UCL)
2)no italian teams for one year

I am for solution no.1

Author: skivaz
Date: 03-06-2006, 15:12

i don't understand why everybody is coming out with his own alternative solution. The UEFA already agreed on the solution that will be taken. the sport justice will be quick, will take the necessary decisions and before the end of July italy will communicate the teams playing in Europe.
and is not true that EVERYBODY is doing like this, thinking such thing it would be like imprison all the family because one memeber has been proven guilty. the proof that only selected teams did it is that only those teams got some advantages, or for the Championship or for the relegation.

Author: skivaz
Date: 05-06-2006, 03:30

breaking news for Italy:
Milan is risking a heavy penalty too. In some phone calls has been identified Galliani (d.g. Milan and Seria A President too, but this is another story)...asking for specific linesmen and referees. Till now just normal conversation about hoping for this or that referee, but now there is explicit reference, that 'Juventus is doing so we have to protect ourselves' these the words in sum of him.
so now 4 teams are risking relegation. Juventus, still the worst position, Milan, Lazio and Fiorentina (asked help to Juventus to not be relegated)

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 05-06-2006, 14:03	@skivaz Thanks a million for the updates; the problem if I look at Italian sites is not too little information, but too much.

Author: skivaz
Date: 05-06-2006, 16:18

@ panda
this is always the problem with Italy. Everybody want to say something. I usually try to look at sources coming from the inquiring than from the mewspapers.
in 3 weeks the inquiry will be finished and the trials will begin.
i'm really curious to know what will happen (the main question is that all the penalisation has to be calibrated with Juventus, if Juve is relegated in Serie B only, then the others will have only a point penalisation because their penalty cannot be higher tham Juventus)
personally the best solution would be Juventus relegated twice so beginning from Serie C, and the other teams relegated once.

Author: panda
Date: 05-06-2006, 16:31

Yes! That would be my personal preferred solution too. (When I followed Italian football closely I used to support Parma, 'cos they were like underdogs, so I never liked Juve, also because I had plenty of friends from Torino and of course they all did.) Serie C would also mean- no CL for Juve for TWO years minimum, plus players leaving.

On BBC website, they present news (and sport of course) in very small items; easy to follow, links to the full story. Don't know if there is a best Italian website like that- I am always on Gazzetta dello Sport, but the hour-by-hour chronology is a real pain to read through.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: skivaz Date: 05-06-2006, 16:44 Edited by: skivaz at: 05-06-2006, 16:52	i just finished to read the schedule of enquiry... the interrogations should be finished for the end of next week, after that 2 stages of justice: CAF and Federal Court. hopefully it will be all finished for the 10th or 15th of July i checked the BBC website, is a good summary... is leaving out much, but for a foreigner is enough, it would be too complicated to dig deeper

Author: skivaz
Date: 15-06-2006, 14:29

latest news about the italian situation, sorry is italian i hope it can be understood by most of you.

Il commissario straordinario della Federcalcio, Guido Rossi, ha delineato le scadenze del processo sportivo per lo scandalo intercettazioni: "Entro il 18 e il 19 giugno - ha detto Rossi - ci sarà la relazione dell'Ufficio indagini al Procuratore federale. I deferimenti ci saranno tra il 20 e il 21 giugno. Il dibattimento in primo grado, davanti alla Caf, ci sarà tra il 27 e il 28 giugno. Tra il 7 e il 9 luglio ci sarà la sentenza di primo grado. Entro il 20 luglio arriverà la sentenza d'appello, quella della Corte federale. Non ci saranno altri gradi di giudizio, nè ricorsi alla Camera di conciliazione del Coni, al Tar o al Consiglio di Stato, nè amnistie o sciocchezze del genere".

Author: Ricardo
Date: 15-06-2006, 15:06

According to dictionary.com:
The extraordinary commissioner of the Federcalcio, I guide Red, has delineated the expirations of the sport process for the scandal interceptions: "Within the 18 and the 19 june - it has said Red - will be the relation of the Office surveyings to the federal Proxy. The referrings will be between the 20 and the 21 june. The debate in first degree, in front of the Caf, will be between the 27 and the 28 june. Between the 7 and the 9 July will be the sentence of first degree. Within the 20 July will arrive the appeal sentence, that one of the federal Court. Not there will be other degrees of judgment, neither resorted to the Room of conciliation of the Cones, to the Tar or the amnesty neither Council of State, or sciocchezze of the sort ".

So before 10th of July a ruling is expected and before 20th July a final decision will be made. Will this be in time for the draw of the CL & UC ??????

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 15-06-2006, 16:00	Well, using the helpful colour-coded bert calendar on this site, if uefa lets figc go till the last moment, a decision on 7-9 July wll be in time for the QR3 draw on 28 July. I guess they would have to draw the It teams according to that decision - there might be problems if the appela then changed things. The CL GS and UC R1 draws are not till August...

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: skivaz Date: 15-06-2006, 16:06	there is still time also to wait the 2nd degree of justice if the time due is respected for the 20th or 21st... should not be any problem. Furthermore, the same Guido Rossi has said that the italian Championship will not be delaid.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 15-06-2006, 19:13	I guess the 'system' is taking into consideration what the Uefa dates are. There must be a bit 'humanity' in Italy too..

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: skivaz Date: 19-06-2006, 04:31	tomorrow or wednesday we should finally know the request of the punishment for the teams involved in the referee-Scandal...

Author: skivaz
Date: 20-06-2006, 05:04
Edited by: skivaz
at: 20-06-2006, 14:13

This is the last article on the italian situation, tomorrow we may know what the club may risk in detail, but already from this article is pretty clear that all the italian spot in european competions will be reviewed.

La situazione dei club. Poche le indiscrezioni sulla relazione di Borrelli. Resta senz'altro difficile la posizione di Juventus, Milan, Lazio e Fiorentina, la Sampdoria dovrebbe invece salvarsi. Sicuro il deferimento per illecito sportivo dell'ex arbitro De Santis.

Juventus, Milan, Lazio e Fiorentina si vedranno contestare la responsabilità diretta (con conseguenti retrocessioni e/o penalizzazioni). Anche a carico del Milan, settimana dopo settimana, sarebbero emersi fatti di un certo rilievo, tali da non far escludere una sanzione "afflittiva".

Per quanto riguarda la Vecchia Signoira sembrano esserci pochi dubbi sulla retrocessione e, addirittura, potrebbe anche esserci una penalizzazione nel prossimo campionato cadetto (più difficile, ma non impossibile la serie C).

Il rapporto di Borrelli rischia di mandare a sorpresa anche il Milan in serie B, mentre potrebbe concedere la grazia a Lazio e Fiorentina.

Occorre capire se l'a.d. del Milan subirà l'accusa di illecito sportivo, cosa che rischierebbe di mandare il Diavolo in serie B. Di certo la posizione rossonera esce sorprendentemente indebolita dal rapporto di Borrelli: fino a qualche giorno fa per il club di via Turati, viste le intercettazioni, si pensava ad una penalizzazione e, al limite, l'esclusione dalla Champions.

Fiorentina e Lazio erano certamente al corrente del funzionamento del sistema, ma non hanno sporto alcuna denuncia: la situazione dei viola e più critica rispetto a quella del club di Lotito. La cosa che pare strana è che alcuni esperti di diritto sportivo avevano giudicato fortemente compromessa la posizione dei due club, al punto da considerare molto probabile la retrocessione in B. Ora invece, stando a quanto avrebbe scritto Borrelli, si può anche pensare ad una penalizzazione nel prossimo campionato con esclusione dalle coppe europee.

L'ex presidente della Figc Franco Carraro, i designatori Paolo Bergamo e Pierluigi Pairetto, il vicepresidente della Federcalcio Innocenzo Mazzini, l'arbitro Massimo De Santis sono gli altri protagonisti del malloppo consegnato da Borrelli al procuratore federale Palazzi. Sarà proprio Stefano Palazzi a dover decidere i provvedimenti da prendere: le società accusate di illecito rischiano la retrocessione, gli altri penalizzazioni sul prossimo campionato. I tesserati potrebbero invece ricevere squalifiche che vanno da pochi mesi fino alla radiazione.

Author: skivaz
Date: 21-06-2006, 16:57

This the last article about Italian enquiry...

I provvedimenti decisi dal procuratore federale, Stefano Palazzi, chiuso da questa mattina nella sede di via Po, scatteranno dunque giovedì dopo le 17,30, ora in cui chiude la Borsa. Questo permetterà di conciliare l'esigenza e le richieste che arrivavano dalla Germania e dal clan azzurro, chiamato domani alla gara decisiva con la Repubblica Ceca per il passaggio agli ottavi di finale. I deferimenti verranno resi noti dopo che l'Italia avrà giocato, così da non compromettere la gara visto che molti degli azzurri in campo sono interessati (per il coinvolgimento dei club di appartenenza) alla decisione del procuratore.

Author: dave_sheffield
Date: 21-06-2006, 19:18

Unofficial voices (from a friend of mine who is journalist) say that there are talks btw Italian Federation and UEFA to give Italy this situation for next year:
-2 teams only in Champions League (probably Inter and Roma)
-3 teams in Uefa Cup (probably Chievo, Palermo and Livorno)
-no teams in QR3 of Champions League

I am not an expert like you of seedings and so i cannot imagine if this solution is really possible and how would change qualification phase if this really happens. But to me it seems to be logical end.
What do you think?

It seems also sure Juventus will be relegated in serie B, while other teams should have only points deducted and European exclusion.
The most doubtful position is the one of Milan and Galliani: first answer will be tomorrow as it has been decided to wait NT match against Czech Rep. before letting known the requests of punishments.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: bert.kassies Date: 21-06-2006, 19:24	IF that would be the case (but I think the outcome relies on more then talks between the Italian FA and UEFA), then UEFA could adapt the schedule to this situation by giving the Turkish champion Galatasaray a direct entry into the group stage.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: dawgs Date: 21-06-2006, 19:38	@bert Don't you have to additionally move 2 CLQ1 teams to Q2? Or 2 CLQ2 teams to Q3?

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 21-06-2006, 19:42 Edited by: Forza-AZ at: 21-06-2006, 19:43	No Italian teams in QR3 and giving Galatasary a direct spot in R1 leaves 29 teams in QR3 for 15 spots in R1. So you should give another team (Slovan Liberec) direct access to R1 so QR2 and QR1 won't be affected (as the draw for QR1 and 2 will already be Friday, so you can't move teams to the next round any more after Friday).

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: bert.kassies Date: 21-06-2006, 20:37	@dawgs and Forza. Yes of coarse another team must be moved. And Forza is right: it will be Slovan Liberec.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 22-06-2006, 08:58	That would be too much for Turkey (I think): moving Galatasaray (and Slovan Liberec) to the Groupstage, and making Fenerbahce seeded with the same action!!

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: executor Date: 22-06-2006, 13:33	{a href="http://www.calcioblog.it/post/856/scommesse-dove-giochera-la-juve"> Here {/a> are some odds regarding Juventus and the league in which they'll play next season.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: panda Date: 22-06-2006, 19:09 Edited by: panda at: 22-06-2006, 19:31	The announcement is supposed to be in a few minutes... Juve, Milan, Fiorentina and Lazio indicted, and 30 indictments in total - but no indication I can see yet of suggested punishments.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Floridian Date: 22-06-2006, 20:08	Times reported the idictment of these 4 clubs as well as some details on the personalities: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2238023,00.html

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: badgerboy Date: 22-06-2006, 20:25	There is now a brief announcement on UEFA.com here

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Ricardo Date: 22-06-2006, 20:43	It's also on Dutch teletext. 4 teams are indicted. If they are found guilty they will be relegated to Serie B. The case is at court at June 28 and verdict is expected at July 9th.

Author: skivaz
Date: 23-06-2006, 10:26
Edited by: skivaz
at: 23-06-2006, 10:28

Opinion of sport lawyer:

Scampato pericolo per Sampdoria e Udinese, seri guai per la Juventus. Pesante il giudizio dell'avvocato Mattia Grassani, uno dei massimi esperti di diritto sportivo in Italia: "Sulla Juve grava un macigno. Se tutti i capi d'accusa saranno accolti dalla Caf, la pena non potrà essere che una: esclusione dal campionato di competenza con assegnazione a un torneo minore. Sì, la serie C è una possibilità: la B non sarebbe una sanzione adeguata se tutte queste violazioni venissero dimostrate", spiega in un'intervista alla Gazzetta dello Sport.
L'avvio del processo di primo grado davanti alla Caf, aveva detto nei giorni scorsi il commissario starordinario della Federcalcio Rossi, è previsto il prossimo 27 giugno. Ma la posizione del Milan sembra la più incerta nel gruppo delle squadre deferite. Non è ancora chiaro se la richiesta dell'accusa sarà la retrocessione oppure oppure una penalizzazione o un'ammenda.

Secondo Grassani, il Milan se la caverà con poco. Il club rossonero è stato deferito per responsabilità diretta e oggettiva di violazione dell'articolo 1 e per responsabilità oggettiva per illecito sportivo: rischia 6/7 punti di penalizzazione sul prossimo campionato di serie A (la pena massima da regolamenti, fino ad oggi, è stata 9), e l'esclusione dalla Champions League.

this will change the complete seedings of GS... and 3rd preliminary round too

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 23-06-2006, 11:06	@skivaz Can you give a (brief) translation of this article. I think most people here can't read Italian.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: Vesuvio Date: 23-06-2006, 11:26	According the layer's opinion above, Juventus have more faults in this situation and risk serie C, while the situation of Milan is less serious sinci isn't involved directly the chairman or an high mnager, but only an employer. For this resos Mlan would have only a penalty point in next season and not relegation, but could be punished with the withdraw from Champions' League.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: skivaz Date: 23-06-2006, 12:33	thanks Vesuvio, you were quicker than me...

Author: badgerboy
Date: 23-06-2006, 12:39

Skivaz/Vesuvio (and other Italian posters).

What is the real feeling in Italy about what will happen here. I get the impression from much of what I read that it's seen as almost a foregone conclusion that the accused clubs will be found guilty and, whether relegated or not will - at a minimum - will have points deducted and not play in Europe next year.

Is that the case or is it just that the majority of journalists tend to go for the more dramatic scenarios because they sell newspapers and in reality either the guilt or the sanctions might be less clear cut?

Author: skivaz
Date: 23-06-2006, 12:46

actually i feel is the opposite of what you are saying... journals are trying to keep a low profile because half of the national team in the WC is playing in those teams.
The decision to wait the end of the match with the Tcheck Rep. before communicating the decisions tells much already. and also the decision that the 1st degree trial will end between the 7th and 9th of July is a clear idea that they want to wait the end of the italian World Cup before doing formal accusations.
if you talk with people in Italy they will say to comdamn hard as ever, because for too many years they played with our weekly fun and changed the betting results... unfortunately there is no way to see those money back,
personally i would be very surprised if also only 1 of those 4 teams will go home without any penalisation

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 30-06-2006, 20:46
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 30-06-2006, 20:47

This is in the Dutch football magazine VI:

UEFA dreigt met uitsluiting clubs Italië

De vertraging van het omkopingsproces heeft de Italiaanse bond een stevige waarschuwing opgeleverd van de UEFA.
De UEFA maakt zich zorgen over de voortgang van het proces, dat werd geschorst om enkele clubs de gelegenheid te geven zich voor te bereiden op de aanklachten.

'We zijn bezig met de voorbereiding voor 27 juli', refereerde een UEFA-woordvoerder aan de aanstaande loting voor de Europa Cups. 'Indien noodzakelijk zijn we bereid het moeilijke besluit te nemen om alle Italiaanse clubs uit de Europese competities te schrappen.'

De Italiaanse bond heeft tot 26 juli de tijd om de vertegenwoordigers op de twee Europese podia aan te wijzen. Mocht die deadline niet worden gehaald, bestaat de kans dat er komend seizoen geen enkele Italiaanse clubs in Europa actief zijn.

Speciale aanklager Guido Rossi voorziet geen problemen met het tijdspad. 'Ik ben rustig over de situatie. De rechtszaak zal maandag worden hervat, en de deadlines worden gehaald.'

Onder meer Juventus, Milan en Fiorentina, die zich alledrie hebben geplaatst voor de Chanpions League, staan onder verdenking. In het geval schuldig bevonden, hangt het drietal clubs ook een degradatie naar de Serie B boven het hoofd.

Short translation:

UEFA has warned the Italian FA that they might exclude all Italian teams from the CL and UEFA-cup if the Italian FA doesn't finish their investigation before 27 July.

Re: Italy, season isn't finished yet.
Author: MalcolmW Date: 30-06-2006, 21:09	In which case Palermo would have been better advised to take the Intertoto route starting 15 July and reaching UEFA Cup by that route before 27 July! Too late now!!

Author: panda
Date: 30-06-2006, 23:20

I'm glad the Italian national team have done well; my impression is the players are not to blame for the scandal, and it cannot have been easy for Pessotto's friends to deal with his attempted suicide.

But it's certainly right for uefa not to make an exception for the Italian clubs; it's also right for Italian football to sort things out without having to muck around with when the new system starts.