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Author: qsl111
Date: 21-04-2006, 22:15

First of all, let me make sure I got it right. So the champion from Holland qualifies for CL; teams second-fifth go to a playoff for the second position, sixth-9th for an UEFA spot and 10th-13th for the intertoto spot. I'll assume this is right, although I might be wrong somehow.

Ok. So Sparta for example finished just 2 points from the intertoto playoff. So she was just about to make it there, although her season was very disappointing. In other words, if you have a lousy season and a flying finish, you could just make it to Europe next season. I don't agree! it's just not fair.. does anyone agree?

Author: AlanK
Date: 21-04-2006, 22:54

This playoff system is awful. Let the league be about the league--all the playoffs here in the USA in football, baseball, and basketball, to say nothing of ice hockey, turn the regular season into, often, a meaningless and boring succession of ho-hum games. Is this playoff system anything but an attempt to milk a few more shekels out of the sport? I know everybody is hurting for money, but sometimes less is more. I have always been happy that Spain (where I've attended most of the futbol games that I have been privileged to attend) hasn't cheapened the regular season by doing something like this. The competition for European spots and to avoid relegation makes it all very exciting year after year, at least to me.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: galatasaray Date: 22-04-2006, 10:50	I agree that too this is not fair system maybe this year 9th team will go to uefa 13th will go to intertoto but 6th to nowhere as 5th to Champions league 2th to uefa cuphey what is that

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Maluyaca Date: 23-04-2006, 01:45	Playoffs can be a good thing but not like in Netherlands. An advantage of playing first out is not a big advantage.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: maymunata Date: 23-04-2006, 12:37	i heard that Nike has became sponsor of the Eredivizie last year. that explains everything.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: badgerboy Date: 23-04-2006, 19:53	The play-off final for a place in the CL will be between 4th placed Ajax and 5th placed Groningen. Justice. What justice?

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Giuseppe Date: 23-04-2006, 19:59	Nike you say? hehe it seems the Americans really want to leave their mark on football. Ooops! did I say football? I meant to say soccer of course

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: iwan Date: 23-04-2006, 21:07 Edited by: iwan at: 23-04-2006, 21:11	Yes I agree, more teams has chance to qualify for the both Europacups!!! In 4 off the 6 play-offs the lowest ended team won. But that's all in the game!! That proofs more teams has chance than in earlier seasons!!

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Ricardo Date: 23-04-2006, 23:08	It shows most of all that the Dutch league is very competitive!!!

Author: ses56
Date: 24-04-2006, 00:32

I wonder what UEFA will say about these play-offs?
All the entries are subject to approval of the UEFA administration.
The UCL 05-06 regulations tell the countries with two representatives: winners and runners-up of the top domestic league championship (Article 1.02)
Will Uefa adm. accept a fourth or fifth placed team to the CL?

It was also mentioned in this forum that the new UIC representative can not be 4 places lower than the last UEFA entry. Does that mean 12 th Vitesse will not be accepted if 6th Utrecht gets the last UEFA Cup spot? In that case the countries requesting a second entry mat get anothe chance.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Knallie Date: 24-04-2006, 01:23	The final standings of the Eredivisie will be the one after the plaoffs. So in other words, AZ anf Feyenoord who where #2 and #3 before the playoffs, will be #5 and #4 in the final standings.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 24-04-2006, 12:53	@Knallie Indeed. The winner of Groningen-Ajax will be ranked 2nd, the loser 3rd. AZ and Feyenoord joint 4th (maybe AZ 4th because they finished above Feyenoord after 34 matches). The winner of the UEFA-cup play-off's (Utrecht/Twente/Heerenveen/Roda) is ranked 6th and the winner of the Intertoto-play-off's (Vitesse/NEC/2nd round UEFA-cup play-off loser) is ranked 7th.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: panda Date: 24-04-2006, 13:28	IN Eng there is now play-off for promotion to all divisions. (top 2 are auto prom, 3-6 play for 3rd prom place) Statistically apparently 5th and 6th do BETTER than 3rd and 4th.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 24-04-2006, 13:53

I would not be as critical as most of you are re. the play-offs system.

After all, it doesn't seem to me that shocking that the best teams of the country play again each other to elect which one should play in the next UCL (and certainly as fair for the teams than taking into consideration performances vs. smaller teams as in the pure League systems). It is furthermore interesting to see how these teams behave in the money time and the Eredivisie might benefit of this new system (assuming that qualities required in the play-offs are the same as those required in the UCL).

On the other side, 2 big disadvantages as you mentioned:
- you play your season in 2 or 4 games. It is a bit harsh for a team that did well all season long and lose everything in 2 games (and what a pressure on referees!)
- strong decrease in interest for the regular League games

What do our Dutch friends think about the experience ?

Author: bert.kassies
Date: 24-04-2006, 14:07

Mixed feelings.

I doubt the decrease in interest for the regular league games. And we had some very spectacular playoff matches. Fun to watch. However, until now attendance at the playoff matches was lower then the league attendance.

But it's maybe a bit unfair. Personally, I would prefer that the ranking at the end of the league is final. But I have no problem that European qualification (which is a cup system) is determnied by playoffs. For same reasons as Lyonnais mentions. But the problem is that UEFA probably will not accept this.

The current system has been approved by UEFA. The new rule that the Intertoto participant can not finish more then 4 places beyond the last UEFA Cup spot seems to be made specifically for this Dutch playoff system.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 24-04-2006, 14:46

Maybe we, the Dutch, should see the league and the qualification for the European Cups as something seperate. Until know CL and UC were the reward for getting to a certain spot in the league. Now it ios not anymore like that. AZ is still 2nd for me in the league. That's what they achieved in the last year. That they now lose the k-o matches for a CL-Q3 spot is not making them suddenly 4th in the league (unless for the Uefa). Last matches of the league and the play-off matches are not boring and fun to watch. From that perspective the play-off is a succces.
Luckily for AZ/Feyenoord Ajax is in the Cupfinal and so AZ and Feyenoord do not have to play eachother for a UefaCupspot. With the loser again having to fight the winner of the 6-9 play-off for the last UefaCupspot. After losing 2 k-o ties it might be difficult against a team that just won 2 k-o ties. And losing that 3rd tie means playing intertoto. Can you imagine: having a fantastic season, ending the league in 2nd position, but still have to play Intertoto.
The only other country where that happens (2nd in league IC) is Andorra!
And what about the champion? It's almost forgotten that PSV is the champion of the Dutch league. Everybody is talking about Ajax and Groningen, but all they can be is second best. At best!

Author: panda
Date: 24-04-2006, 16:22

I am sure play-offs are for increasing interest (and revenue) at end of season. In particular, have two episodes of drama 1) who will qualify for play-offs? 2) who wins play offs?

But, like any system, sometimes works, sometimes not.

E.g. in Scotland, the top league splits at 33/38, and then top half teams play another match against each of the rest of the top half, and likewise bottom. This year, Celtic already champion before split even, but v exciting as regards who will get second CL spot. Also makes some sense in a league where the top half is usually much stronger than the bottom half.

But in England second tier, all promo (and rel) issues decided well before end of regular season, so fans are just waiting for the play-offs, last few games mean v little.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 24-04-2006, 17:06

The last league rounds and the play-off's are very interesting. So I'm not fully against these play-offs (allthough it's very sour for AZ now

).
Only thing I think it not correct is that teams with more than 10 points difference in the league start at exactly the same level in the play-offs.

Teams with more than 10 points more should get a bonus at the start of the play-offs.
-For instance give them 2 bonuspoints, so the team that finished lower at least has to win and draw once to progress.
(Example Groningen still had to get a draw yesterday to go through to the next round)

-Or make the 4 teams play a small league after the regular season, with keeping 25% of the points they got in the league (rounded to whole numers).
(Startingpoint would have been: AZ 19, Feyenoord 18, Ajax 15 and Groningen 14. Still very exiting, but still giving the teams with more points a advantage)

-Or only let the teams within 10 points of the number 2 play for the CL-spot.
(So Ajax and Groningen would have no play-offs and have a UEFA-cup ticket directly. AZ and Feyenoord play-off for the CL-ticket. In the other play-offs with maximum 8 points difference all teams are still in)

Author: iwan
Date: 25-04-2006, 17:32
Edited by: iwan
at: 26-04-2006, 16:10

In this season the've play-offs for the 1st time, but the
in the 33 seasons before they'd had a nacompetitie for promotion and later relavation too. And in that everybody started at zero points!!

In that nacompetitie many times the nr-2 didn't promote and
the nr-6 did promote!! In 2000 Zwolle (second) didn't promote and
RBC (sixt) didt!! In 2003 Exelsior (second) didn't promote and volendam (sixt) did, and the most extremely example in 1990 NAC (second) didn't promote and Heerenveen (SIXTEEEEEENST) did promote!!!

So many people discuss about the unfairness off the play-offs in this season but not about the nakompetitie in the 33 seasons before!!
And in the 5 seasons this forum exists only this season people write about it becouse they've now fore the 1st time an otter system in the highest league!!!

Was it fair in all those 33 seasons to let start everybody at zero points?!!? That's the question!!!

In can agree whit Forza-AZ to let keep every team in the nacompetitie let keep 25% off theire points off the original-compeition, include the both pools for promotion-relegation and in the last 2 pools the both teams from the eredivisie each 40% off their points.

Becouse in the nacompetitie off the last 33 jears everybody started at zero points instead 25% off the points at the normal competition Groningen didn't promotie in 1975,1979 and 1999.
Three times they ware very unlucky with that ruwl!!

This season it's the fist time Groningen has LUCK every-body starts at zero points in the play-offs!!

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: nelster Date: 26-04-2006, 10:12	I think the system is dreadful and unfair. AZ Alkmaar are a club which have been building for the last few years and I was looking forward to seeing them in the Champions League. By having the play-offs the Eredivise also gave license to Ajax to not bother with the league matches after European games as they knew they would always have the play-offs.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: bh62 Date: 26-04-2006, 23:59	was tonights game a 1 off match? or is there a 2nd leg? thanks

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: badgerboy Date: 27-04-2006, 01:05	2nd leg on Sunday.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Knallie Date: 27-04-2006, 11:38	actually the 2nd leg is on Wednesday 3rd May.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: badgerboy Date: 27-04-2006, 13:15	Yes, Knallie is right about the date. I took it from soccerway and remembered afterwards I'd read on here that the date had changed.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: iwan Date: 27-04-2006, 15:12	In Scotland the 6 best highest league must play a final-round for the championship. But before the final-round started it was sure Celtic became champion and the 2 wordt teams in that roundt has a very very theoretec chance to can reach the UC. Is that what people want!?!? Than are the Dutch play-offs a better solution!!

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: panda Date: 28-04-2006, 10:36	Yes- with any play-offs/ split like Scotland system, it works well some years, not so well some years. So the only system where no-one can complain is the normal, 'pure' league system. But we know that all play-off systems arise in an attempt to add extra interest / excitement - NOT for pure 'fairness'

Author: putzeijs
Date: 28-04-2006, 12:56

I'm not Dutch, I don't like a Play-off system for the end of a league.
I can see some (economic) reasons why one should organise a play off. If it has to be so, make it at least a play-off in league form.

@Iwan: Nakompetitie is a real league (4 teams 6 games). That is imo much realistic than a pure KO-play Off (2 games).
In Belgium we have a promotion "nakompetie" from second to first level too. They all start at zero points, buth if 2 teams have the same number of points, the best ranked get the promotion.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 28-04-2006, 13:13
Edited by: badgerboy
at: 28-04-2006, 13:23

Play-offs have their place. They have been part of the promotion picture in England for a long time now - and hugely popular with most fans.

In the Championship - for example - the top two are promoted and the next four teams have play-offs (3rd v 6th, 4th v 5th) with the highest placed-team playing at home in the second leg and then a one-off "final" at a neutral venue to decide the promoted team. This usually (this year is an exception!) ensures interest for a number of clubs right to the end of the season.

But there are limits. First - under the system in England TWO clubs are still guaranteed automatic promotion, and it's fairly easy to class the third spot as a "bonus" rather than a "god-given right" being taken away from the third-placed team. Second - a few years ago there were discussions about including an additional two teams in the play-offs. Thankfully someone said STOP to this idea, because league performance over 38 or 46 (championship) games surely has to count for something more significant than home advantage in a play-off.

Maybe it just takes getting used to. But in general play-offs for promotion/relegation - OK. But play-offs for the Championship or for Champions League places seems different to me. You start asking - why have a league at all?

I forgot to make a response to Iwan. The Scottish system isn't perfect but I would still prefer it to all the teams playing each other four times and then the fifth-placed team (Aberdeen or Kilmarnock) getting a chance to take the CL spot from a team that probably finished 20 or 30 points ahead of them in the league. Yes, you want to create interest in matches and more competition but doing this by turning the outcome of the league into a cup competition is not the answer imo. In Holland this year you will now have Groningen, who have no realistic chance of finishing in the top two over a full league season, or Ajax; who usually finish in the top two but this year, whether because they weren't good enough or because they knew they didn't have to bother, didn't come close. Neither deserve it.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 28-04-2006, 14:59

What do you think of the San Marino play offs?
it is a knock-out format with only 1 match between 2 opponents, but also with a fall back option.
For those who don't know it:
There are 2 league pools, with the top 3 of both pools qualifying. 1st round nr2 and nr3 fight eachother. Winner plays a nr1. loser of this 2nd round play losers of 1st round. winners of round 2 play eachoter for a final-place. winners of round 3 play eachother for a match against the loser round 4 for the other final-place.
You can transfer this into a systme for spot 1-6: 1& 2 are free the first round. 3-6, 4-5 winner 3-6 against 2, winner 4-5 against 1.
loser 36 against 45, etc. etc.
Winner plays CL, losing finalist play CL-Q3

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: panda Date: 28-04-2006, 15:02	Another system. English rugby league- superleague. The system is (I think): Play offs round 1 6 v 3, 4 v 5 1 and 2 have byes Round 2 winners of round 2 play each other 'Semi-final' 2 v winner of Round 2 Grand final 1 v winner of semi final So the advantage of finishing higher up is - fewer matches, or, if 3, get to play the in theory weaker 6.

Author: FrancoisD
Date: 28-04-2006, 18:28

I understand play-offs in USA may be a necessity because leagues are often splitted in two for time zone reasons.

I understand play-offs in French rugby competition, because regular championship season is not interrupted by international games, and the winner would be considered as the club who manages to not have its best players in national selection.

I understand play-offs for promotion/relegation (maybe including matches between level 1 and 2 teams).

But the play-offs for second-rank european spots seems mysterious to me. If it's about money, why is the best team in holydays ?

Author: badgerboy
Date: 29-04-2006, 12:02

Ricardo

Re: San Marino play-offs.

The short answer is - I don't like any play-offs to decide Champions or European places.

Thanks for the detail though on how the whole thing works. I'd read about the play-offs on UEFA.com but they just said it was a "complicated" system where a team was only eliminated after losing twice.

Looking at the results on soccerway I see that the two group winners (Tre Fiori and Murata) won their initial matches against the Round 1 winners. Pennarossa (who lost in R1) have now beaten Libertas (who won in R1 but lost in R2) so I guess Libertas are eliminated. In the other third match Tre Penne (R1 winner) and Domagnano (R1 loser) are shown as having drawn. Not sure if this is the final result or if Soccerway are not showing the result of any penalty-shoot out. If it's the final result do they play again or are Domagnano eliminated because they also lost in the first round?

On consideration - it's a quirky system for a small nation but involves too many teams in a play-off system for most major leagues and is far too complicated.

It has given me a slight idea as to how four team play-offs could be adopted though. To give the highest placed-team a more "real" advantage from their league position - the 5th should play the 4th over two legs - the winner play the 3rd over two more legs and the winner of that play the 2nd. That way the 5th placed team could still get the CL place but would have to win three ties to do so, as opposed to the 2nd placed team only having to win one.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 29-04-2006, 13:07

Domagnano lost on penalty's. See here.

First Round [Apr 19> [2nd vs 3rd>
Domagnano 1-4 Libertas
Pennarossa 1-1 Tre Penne [aet, 2-3 pen>

Second Round [Apr 22> [1st vs winners 1st round>
Tre Fiori 1-0 Tre Penne
Murata 3-1 Libertas

Third Round [Apr 27> [losers 1st round vs losers 2nd round>
Tre Penne 1-1 Domagnano [aet, 5-3 pen>
Libertas 0-2 Pennarossa
NB: losers eliminated

Fourth Round
[Apr 28> [winners 2nd round>
Tre Fiori - Murata
[May 2> [winners 3rd round>
Tre Penne - Pennarossa

Semifinal [May 6>
losers Apr 28 - winners May 2

Final [May 11, stadio Serravalle>
winners Apr 28- winners May 6

Author: Ricardo
Date: 29-04-2006, 13:48

They indeed won on penalties which means that Libertas and DOmagnano are now out of the competition.
you can find also information on the offical(?) San Marino soccer site: http://www.fsgc.sm/
They are often not very quick with the latest results (a day later or so), but I guess it's the real result.

Yesterday Tre Fiori-Murata was played (winner to final), but I have not found any result of it yet

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: bert.kassies Date: 29-04-2006, 14:44	According to sanmarinortv.sm Murata plays in the final. "29/04/2006 Play off: Murata in finale Il Murata � la prima finalista del campionato sammarinese di calcio. Nella semifinale giocata ieri sera sul campo di Serravalle B ha, infatti, battuto il Tre Fiori con il risultato di 1 a 0. A decidere l� incontro un gol di Massimo Agostini al 15' del secondo tempo."

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: pla Date: 30-04-2006, 13:26	i disagree entirely with this system even if team known that when season start. AZ couldn't go to CL and still stay in uefa cup.The system could be done to preserve ajax chance it won't be another thing.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 03-05-2006, 21:13
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 03-05-2006, 21:13

ajax just qualified for the CL. They lost 2-1 in Groningen, but it was enough after they won 2-0 at home last week. (ajax scored the 2-1 only 2 minute before time).

Groningen will play UEFA-cup, together with AZ, Feyenoord and most likely also Heerenveen (with 35 minutes to go they are 3-0 up versus Twente, while they won the first leg with 0-1).

Twente will play Vitesse on 11 and 14 May for the Intertoto spot.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Lyonnais Date: 04-05-2006, 04:13	This was the right way to save an average season! Well done Ajax, you were present at the right time of the season. I have no real preference for the Dutch League, but, still, I would have appreciated to see AZ67. They look like they deserved it based on their performance in the domestic league and their 2 last campaigns in UEFA Cup. Next year certainly

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Ricardo Date: 04-05-2006, 08:59	Lyonnais, AZ lost the '67 also some time ago(Forza probably will now when), but funny you are using the old name

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 04-05-2006, 11:46	AZ'67 was the name untill 1986. In that year the name was changed to just AZ.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Lyonnais Date: 04-05-2006, 13:37	I didn't know that they lost their '67 !!! In fact, I remember them in the early 80s when they made a beautiful UEFA Cup campaign. They played Sochaux in semi-final if I remember well before losing the final vs. Ipswich (? Or Dundee United?)

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 04-05-2006, 17:46	@Lyonnais It was Ipswich that beat AZ in the final.

Re: Eredivizie - do you agree?
Author: putzeijs Date: 05-05-2006, 10:37	The San Marino scenario is looks very complicated to me. But it remind me of the system used in judo games. Fair system, but to complicated, and to much games.