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Author: panda
Date: 21-04-2006, 13:13

Previous threads mention that UEFA first discussed ending the present possibility (loser of domestic cup final qualifies for UC if winner is already in CL), then are deferring this.

Mentioned in previous thread e.g. re Gretna in Scotland - a very romantic story because it played in England non-league (it was just over the border) then transferred to Scottish league and is now a big success story. If Hearts qualify for CL then Gretna will go to UC win or lose the Scottish cup final this year.

Other example from UK is Millwall (this year relegated from 2nd level in England) which was domestic cup loser and played (unsuccessfully) in UC.

Has anyone got a view on this?

Pro the existing system:
Domestic cup loser in UC can be a romantic story, can be sort of deserved (because it is like tradition of cup winner to cup winners' cup) or

Against:
can mean a team much poorer than the one qualifying through the league plays. And of course the romantic cup final loser can therefore harm the country coefficient.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 21-04-2006, 13:47

In my opinion it's bad.

It's still a romantic story for the club to reach the Cup Final at all and even more romantic if they win (in which case they would fully deserve their shot at Europe). I'd object extremely strongly if UEFA licensing rules started to impinge on this possibility.

To me a team finishing 6th or 7th domestically (or even 3rd in some countries) has done far more to deserve European football than a lower division side who has reached a Cup Final and been played off the park by superior opponents.

As regards the negative effect on coefficients. The record of losing finalists from each of the big five countries playing in Europe over the past five seasons: Osasuna (1 pt), Millwall (1 pt), Southampton (1 pt), Chateauroux (0 pts), Kaiserslautern (0 pts), Union Berlin (4 pts), Alemmania Aachen (9 pts). Only one could be termed a reasonable performance.

Cup Final losers OUT (sorry West Ham or Boro)!

Re: domestic cup losers in Europe - good or bad?
Author: FrancoisD Date: 21-04-2006, 13:58	In my opinion, as CWC is over, the cup loser should not qualify. They are only luckier than the cup winner's semifinal opponent.

Author: isidromv
Date: 21-04-2006, 14:07

I think that for countries out of top 8, with 3 or 4 spots, only the cup winner should play UC. The 3rd or 4th in the league deserve it more than the loser finalist.

But for the top 6, with 3 or 4 spots in CL and 3 in UC, two spots should be gicen through the cup(s):
- Cup winner to CL.
- Loser finalist or league cup winner to UC.

There should be a seeding system to minimize the probability of lower division teams going to CL, something like top level clubs always seeded above lower level ones (in this case, if a lower level team reaches the final, it deserves to play in Europe with no doubt).

For 7th and 8th in country ranking, the above could apply, or both finalists could play in UC.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 21-04-2006, 21:37

I see no reason to include cup runners-up in the UC. This is a situation inherited from the CWC and with multiple CL spots available the chances of losers going forward is vastly increased in higher rated countries.
While I agree with badgerboy on most things, I am surprised that he describes Middlesbrough at never finishing higher than 7th. They have finished in the top 4 twice and I, for one, will be happy never to see them there again.
The seasons in question were 1913-14 and 1938-39...

Author: STK
Date: 21-04-2006, 23:00

Why not puting cup SEMI-finalists from top 5 countries at least direct in UC? I'm certain that these teams are very competitive, or SEMI-competitive, anyway

I can't belive that UEFA is so careless with your SEMI-competitive teams. How can a team that you don't even know his name can play from the 1st QR, and these teams not even play in Europe? It's outrageous. I tell you these UEFA suits are cooking something.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 22-04-2006, 17:22

That can happen STK

(should the 2 cup finalists be qualified for the Champions League), but I would suggest that you think about this in your multiple topics you already opened (or de facto manage) in order not to distract this one.

I agree with most of you. No reason why the runner-cup get a spot in the UEFA Cup. The best non-European team in the League usually deserves the spot far more than the Cup runner-up.

Re: domestic cup losers in Europe - good or bad?
Author: badgerboy Date: 23-04-2006, 16:08	MalcolmW is correct and I must apologise to Middlesbro fans everywhere. I was sure I'd heard somewhere that 7th was their highest ever finish - they probably meant in the Premier League. I normally look these things up though.

Author: apw
Date: 23-04-2006, 19:12

West Ham United are in the Uefa cup for 2006 - 07.
It 's a return for for the side that won the CWC in 1964 and also reached the final in the 70's.

This means there will be 4 teams from London in European competition next season.

This season West Ham have suffered by the deaths of the 2 managers who took them to those finals i mention.

It would be fitting if West Ham could actually win the FA cup as a tribute !

I personally like to see the Runners up gain entry as it gives smaller teams or should i say teams less wealthy than the big clubs an opportunity at International competition.

The UEFA Cup is already geared to the big clubs with the safety net of a UEFA place for the team finishing 3rd in the CL 1st Round.
So why not allow teams such as Gretna or Millwall the chance after all Football is the game of all classes not just the elite.

Badgerboy :
In 1983 when Brighton lost to Man Utd, under today's rules BHA would have qualified for Uefa Cup as Man Utd finished 3rd that year.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 23-04-2006, 19:29

apw

You are right about Brighton and I suppose if they combined a cup final appearance next year with the League One Championship I'd be happy with a European place but I can't let this possibility change my overall opinion!

It's not usually "big" clubs who miss out on Europe because of this rule (of course it can be). Wigan could finish seventh in the Premier League this season (as could West Ham themselves) and I think that achievement is more worthy of Europe than losing a cup final (even if I think West Ham might be set up to do better than Wigan next season). Let's just say I hope West Ham and Gretna WIN their respective cups - then I have absolutely no argument against their participation in Europe.