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Author: cska
Date: 11-04-2006, 20:45

Dear fans,
I think that as regards coefficients, a Fair Play or an Intertoto entry to UC is in fact a disadvantage. This is unfair. Fair Play should really be an AWARD to the respective association, not a setback. Intertoto should bring benefits to the winning associations, not a minus when calculating coefficients. So, I think that it will be really fair and rewarding for these Fair Play and Intertoto entries, if the points earned in UC by these teams are counted, but the teams do not count when the added points are divided by the number of competing teams, i.e. if Norway gets 1 Fair Play spot and its teams are now 5, the points of the added team count, but the total points are divided by 4, not 5. This will be really a REWARD, not a penalty.
And also, I think that 3 points bonus for just watching 6 games in CL groups if the club is direct entrant, but a 6 game loser - this is unfair. 1 point is better, bu the bonuses for progressing further should be bigger.

Author: Gauss
Date: 12-04-2006, 01:11

You're right about fair play entries. This is also discussed in a different thread. But Intertoto entries usually are no disadvantage for the association concerned - at least they haven't been recently. That might change with the new system.

This season:
Marseille 12.0
Lens 10.0
France 10.812
Hamburg 13.0
Germany 10.312 + x

Last season:
Lille 13.0
France 11.428
Schalke 10.0
Germany 10.571
Villareal 18.0
Spain 12.437

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 12-04-2006, 01:52
Edited by: dinamo_fan_4_ever
at: 12-04-2006, 01:52

THIS TOPIC IS VERY SUBJECTIVE

THE INTER TOTO CUP IS SUBJECTIVE BY ITSELF, MOSTLY IN THIS NEW FORMAT,
PRACTICALLY IT A ROPE GIVE TO THE STRONG TEAMS THAT BY 1 WAY OR ANOTHER DONT QUALIFY FOR THE EUROPEAN COMPETITION AND THATS WHY IT WOULD BE RIDICULOUS TO HELP THEM EVEN MORE AND GIVE THEM POINTS, ON THE OTHER HAND TEAMS CAN RUIN THE CPUNTRYES COEFF BY WINNING IT IT CUP AND THAN GETTING ELIMINATED INNTHE 1ST ROUND

ABOUT THE FAIR PLAY SPOTS, I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR PLAY TO ASK THE RESPECTIVE FEDERATION IT THE WANT ANOTHER TEAM SO IT CAN RUIN THEYR COEFF, THAT WOULD BE FAIR PLAY AND IN CASE OF A REFUSAL THEY SHOULD GO ASK THE NEXT FEDERATION AND SO ON

3 POINT BONUS IS THE MOST SUBJECTIVE, I THINK IT REFLECTS THE PARALEL QUALIFY OF A TEAM IN THE UEFA CUP GROUP STAGE WITH 1 WIN AND A DRAW
SO THAT ENTERING EITHER GROUP STAGES U HAVE ALREADY 3 PTS. IF IT WARE'NT FOR THESE 3 PTS THAN TEAMS LIKE ANDERLECHT, BRUGGES, PANATHINAIKOS ETC WOULD BE TEMPTED TO "SELL" THE QR3 MATCH AND GAIN POINTS IN THE UEFA CUP. ON THE OTHER HAND BEEING DIRECTLY QUALIFIED AND LOOSING ALL 6 MATCHES THEN U DESERVE NO BONUS POINTS BUT A GOOD SPANKING

Author: panda
Date: 12-04-2006, 11:02

Surely it is largely the people with outlook of this forum (interested in coefficients) that think this way.

In most cases, one is a supporter of a team. If that team gains European football, one is pleased. If it is a 'little' team, all the better, to have that chance to participate in 'the romance of European football.'

Even if, statistically, the little team will not do well, and therefore not help the country coefficient, I don't think that club's supporters (or many neutrals who follow football, but not statistics) will be bothered.

Re: Good proposal for change in coeficient computation
Author: JPV Date: 12-04-2006, 12:31	ABOUT THE FAIR PLAY SPOTS, I THINK IT WOULD BE FAIR PLAY TO ASK THE RESPECTIVE FEDERATION IT THE WANT ANOTHER TEAM SO IT CAN RUIN THEYR COEFF, THAT WOULD BE FAIR PLAY AND IN CASE OF A REFUSAL THEY SHOULD GO ASK THE NEXT FEDERATION AND SO ON - stop the use of caps - No federation will refuse a UEFA ticket...

Author: ferdi
Date: 12-04-2006, 15:09

You should never forget that the target for all teams is to win the Champions League or the Uefa Cup. They do not play for ranking points, but for the trophies.

The ranking points are not to be regarded as a reward or a penalty, but as a measure.

Insofar one should not talk about "fair" rankings, but about "correct" rankings.

This means that one might regard it as correct if fair play teams do not contribute to the country ranking of their countries at all. It would certainly not be correct if the points of those teams would contribute, but the number of teams would not be increased by one, as cska suggests.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 12-04-2006, 18:43

I dealt with the Fair Play issue (or at least gave my opinion on various options to deal with it) on another thread.

Intertoto qualification is slightly different. Under the old system there wasn't really a problem as (with I think one exception ten years ago) all the qualifiers came from the top five countries and, although some may have failed in the early rounds they were no more likely to do so than other directly qualified teams with minimal experience.

The new system will change things somewhat. There will be at least six clubs from countries outside the top five entering the second qualifying round. There may be exceptions but I'd guess the majority of those will be unseeded in UEFA R1 if not in QR2 and there's a reasonable chance the country coefficient will suffer in comparison with those countries with a similar ranking who fail to qualify from the Intertoto.

I can't agree with CSKAs option of counting Intertoto points and not counting the team - or indeed any of the other proposals I suggested for Fair Play teams. The obvious thing to do with the Intertoto would be to treat it like UEFA qualifying - all the teams and points (or half points) count. That way noone loses.

Just to add - I'd always count the number of teams who COULD take part - not the number that do. Otherwise associations like Portugal could gain an advantage -intentional or otherwise - by not taking part.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 13-04-2006, 01:07

@JPV

yes they would if the fair play team sucks
sry about caps

@ ferdi

indeed , each team dreams to win the title but i think fisrt they want to pass the qualifing rounds , get in the group stage, qualify from it and than they will heve the target to win the competition, the higher u go on the rankings the higher the ambitions will be, steaua for example said that the only thing they wanted was to go in the UCL, when they lost they said they wanted to play the UC last 16 as last year and now they want the title, perfectly normal and i must bow to them

Author: ferdi
Date: 14-04-2006, 10:32

dinamo_fan_4_ever regards it very much from the viewpoint of the non-competitive teams. Of course, if you only want to come into the group stage, then it is very helpful if you are seeded in R1 at number 40, and hope to get a weak opponent. But if you enter the competition as a competitive team, you should not really fear a stronger opponent in R1, since sooner or later in the competition you have to face strong opponents anyway. Even if you lose in R1 this year, that shouldn't matter too much since a competitive team will come back next year (see Osasuna).