Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: badgerboy
Date: 07-04-2006, 12:34

See also the thread "Article about CL and holder in Spanish Press" by Isidromv yesterday which brings my assumptions here into doubt.

I think I'm fairly clear on most of what happens now if "the Liverpool situation" repeats. Villarreal (or Arsenal) finish 5th or 6th in the league and win CL. They go into CL GS and 4th place team goes to UEFA Cup along with the other two qualified teams. I'm also clear that the UEFA Cup winner would take the TH spot in the UEFA Cup if they failed to qualify for that cup (or the CL) through domestic competition.

The only slight doubt I have (and I didn't have any before Isidromv quoted Marca) is what happens if a team wins the CL and finishes outside the qualifying positions all together. I know what happens to them but what happens to the team in the final UEFA qualifying position? I think they must qualify as well.

So to take a "real" situation. If the following happens.

Villarreal wins the CL, Sevilla wins the UEFA Cup.

Spanish league final positions:

1-4 as now.
5 Celta Vigo
6 Deportivo
7 Sevilla
8 Villarreal

Sevilla take the TH spot in UEFA Cup and Villarreal take the TH spot in the CL. The 4th place team (currently Osasuna)drop into the UEFA Cup along with the CW, 5th place team AND 6th place team - so Spain would start with five teams in the UEFA Cup (+ any Intertoto or Fair Play teams).

In this case, based on the provisional access list the Russian Cup winner would have to play QR2 and - presumably - all the Polish teams QR1.

Would Forza, Bert and other access list experts on here concur with my understanding?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 07-04-2006, 12:44

There is no extra spot in the access list for this case, so I think Spain will keep 3 UEFA-cup spots (4 if Sevilla wins the UEFA-cup and isn't one of these 3 teams).

So example:

1 Barcelona
2 Real Madrid
3 Valencia
4 Osasuna
5 Celta Vigo
6 Deportivo
7 Sevilla
8 Villarreal
CW Zaragoza/Espanyol

Normal situation:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid
CL QR3: Valencia, Osasuna
UEFA: Celta, Deportivo, Zaragoza/Espanyol

When Villarreal wins the CL:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villarreal (TH)
CL QR3: Valencia
UEFA: Osasuna, Celta, Zaragoza/Espanyol

When Sevilla wins UEFA-cup:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid
CL QR3: Valencia, Osasuna
UEFA: Celta, Deportivo, Zaragoza/Espanyol, Sevilla (TH)

When Villarreal wins CL and Sevilla wins UEFA-cup:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villarreal (TH)
CL QR3: Valencia
UEFA: Osasuna, Celta, Zaragoza/Espanyol, Sevilla (TH)

Other example in which Sevilla is 6th in the final standings:

1 Barcelona
2 Real Madrid
3 Valencia
4 Osasuna
5 Celta Vigo
6 Sevilla
7 Deportivo
8 Villarreal
CW Zaragoza/Espanyol

Normal situation:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid
CL QR3: Valencia, Osasuna
UEFA: Celta, Sevilla, Zaragoza/Espanyol

When Villarreal wins the CL:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villarreal (TH)
CL QR3: Valencia
UEFA: Osasuna, Celta, Zaragoza/Espanyol

When Sevilla wins UEFA-cup:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid
CL QR3: Valencia, Osasuna
UEFA: Celta, Sevilla, Zaragoza/Espanyol

When Villarreal wins CL and Sevilla wins UEFA-cup:

CL GS: Barcelona, Real Madrid, Villarreal (TH)
CL QR3: Valencia
UEFA: Osasuna, Celta, Zaragoza/Espanyol, Sevilla (TH)

Author: badgerboy
Date: 07-04-2006, 13:23

We'll have to wait and see.

If it turns out that way it seems unfair that Deportivo (in the example) would miss out on a European place if another Spanish team won one competition but "failed" in the league but would not miss out if they won a different competition and failed in the league.

I think the access list is simply wrong because it's another scenario UEFA haven't thought of happening. I also base my thinking on the badly worded press release of 1 August last year regarding the CL Title holder spot:

"This will only increase the number of places that an association has in the UEFA competitions if the title-holders do not qualify for these competitions through their domestic league"

If this doesn't mean "increase the number of places" in the specific
competition - ie the Champions League - and the general consensus seems to be that it doesn't, then it ought to mean that the number of places WOULD increase if they didn't qualify for the competitions as a whole.

When do UEFA publish the darned regulations?

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 07-04-2006, 17:01

If it turns out that way it seems unfair that Deportivo (in the example) would miss out on a European place if another Spanish team won one competition but "failed" in the league but would not miss out if they won a different competition and failed in the league.

It's equally unfair that the number 4 will not play in the CL, while they qualified.
Indeed this is probably a situation that UEFA didn't look after. They probably think that winning the CL and not being inside the top 6 in their league is impossible.
We just have to wait for the regulations or if they aren't clear we have to wait untill the situation occurs that Villarreal indeed wins the CL and stays outside the top 6.

Author: Francisco
Date: 07-04-2006, 23:38

I think UEFA should regulate this situation with simple rules:

- The holders always go to the competition they won, except if the winner of UEFA Cup earns a spot in CL, in this case both go to CL.
- The spots earned by the holders are independent of the total number of spots given to any country, except if that resulted in 5 teams in CL, in that case since the maximum is 4 for each country, the 4th placed team would go to UEFA Cup, but this country is awarded an extra UEFA Cup spot.

Example:

Imagine Romania, that this year had 3 teams in Europe, imagine also that the 2006/07 ranking defines that Romania has a right to 3 spots next year, we have 2 cases:

- Steaua doesn't win the UEFA Cup: Romania sticks with 3 teams playing the appropriate competitions.

- Steaua wins UEFA Cup, Steaua has the right to play UEFA Cup again (unless they qualify to CL), but the number of teams Romania sends is now 4: The first 3 + Steaua, and if Steaua is in the first 3, then the 4th placed team goes to UEFA Cup.

Re: The "Spain situation" and UEFA Cup access list
Author: eldaec Date: 08-04-2006, 13:44	My view is that winning the UC or CL should always result in an extra spot for that country. Even if the winner qualifies through their domestic league as well as by winning the competition. If people don't like the fact that this might leave one country with 5 CL teams, fine, reduce the number of teams each ocuntry can ordinarily enter by one. /shrug.

Author: badgerboy
Date: 08-04-2006, 14:11

I wouldn't have a huge problem with the suggestions of Eldaec or Francisco although I'd take a middle ground between the two.

I personally don't like the four team rule. Why should people get upset if England, Italy or Spain get five teams so the "big 5" countries get 5+4+4+3+3=19 teams in the CL but not mind if Germany or France get four teams so that the "big 5" get 4+4+4+4+3=19 teams?
So - unlike Francisco - I'd ignore the four team rule. What really needs to happen this year to see the rule reviewed is for Villarreal to win the CL and Real Madrid to finish 4th in La Liga.

But if the rules are set and clear on the 4th placed team going to UEFA Cup in the event of a lower team winning the CL then the rules are there and we have to live with them for now. Tottenham might lose out on the CL if Arsenal win it but at least they get European football. Don't like those rules but if they are clear they are clear. But Arsenal having a nightmare in the league and ending up 7th but still winning the CL and the 6th place team in the Premiership missing out on Europe all together is just WRONG!

I'm happy enough though with no team getting an advantage they wouldn't normally of had from the success of others. For example, Man City not going to the UEFA Cup last year was correct.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 09-04-2006, 23:32

UEFA Champions League | |UEFA Cup |
--------------------------| |-----------------------------------|
Group|Q3 |Q2 |Q1|Rank Association |First Round |Q2 |Q1 |
-----|-----------|-----|--|--------------------------|--------------|--------|-
----------|
TH | | | | |TH |11 x UIC| 3 x FP|
CH RU| N3 N4| | | 1 Spain |CW N5 N6| | |
CH RU| N3 N4| | | 2 England |CW N5 N6| | |
CH RU| N3 N4| | | 3 Italy |CW N5 N6| | |
CH RU| N3 | | | 4 France |CW N4 N5 | | |
CH RU| N3 | | | 5 Germany |CW N4 N5 | | |
CH RU| N3 | | | 6 Portugal |CW N4 N5 | | |
CH | RU | | | 7 Netherlands |CW N3 N4 N5 | | |
CH | RU | | | 8 Greece |CW N3 N4 N5 | | |
CH | RU | | | 9 Belgium |CW | N3| |
|CH | RU| | 10 Scotland |CW | N3| |
|CH | RU| | 11 Turkey |CW | N3| |
|CH | RU| | 12 Czech Republic |CW | N3| |
|CH | RU| | 13 Russia |CW | N3| |
|CH | RU| | 14 Austria | |CW N3| |
|CH | RU| | 15 Ukraine | |CW N3| |
| |CH | | 16 Israel | |CW RU N3| |
| |CH | | 17 Serbia and Montenegro| |CW RU N3| |
| |CH | | 18 Poland | |CW RU | N3|
| |CH | | 19 Switzerland | | | CW RU N3|
| |CH | | 20 Norway | | | CW RU N3|
| |CH | | 21 Bulgaria | | | CW RU N3|
| |CH | | 22 Croatia | | | CW RU |
| |CH | | 23 Denmark | | | CW RU |
| |CH | | 24 Hungary | | | CW RU |
| |CH | | 25 Romania | | | CW RU |
| |CH | | 25 Romania | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 26 Sweden | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 27 Slovakia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 28 Slovenia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 29 Cyprus | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 30 Bosnia-Herzegovina | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 31 Latvia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 32 Finland | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 33 Moldova | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 34 Georgia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 35 Lithuania | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 36 Iceland | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 37 F.Y.R. Macedonia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 38 Republic of Ireland | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 39 Belarus | | | CW RU |
| | | | 40 Liechtenstein | | | CW |
| | |CH| 41 Armenia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 42 Malta | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 43 Albania | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 44 Estonia | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 45 Northern Ireland | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 46 Wales | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 47 Luxembourg | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 48 Azerbaijan | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 49 Faroe Islands | | | CW RU |
| | |CH| 50 Kazakhstan | | | CW RU |
| | | | 51 Andorra | | |CH |
| | | | 52 San Marino | | |CH |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------|
Number of teams | Total | Number of teams |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------|
16 | 18 | 16 |24| 198 teams | 32 | 28 | 72 |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------

Re: The "Spain situation" and UEFA Cup access list.
Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever Date: 09-04-2006, 23:35	whats up here is from THIS site so u can see that the TH of each competition is added separately so i dont see why spain or any other country shouldnt have an extra team in case a team from theyr country wins the cup

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 09-04-2006, 23:46

also i think that if any team wins a trophy, theyr country must get an exrta spot in that competition no mather on which place the team finishes, even if she finishes on a spot that grants the qualification in the cup
example :
if steaua wins the UC romania should have 3 teams next year in the UC even if :
steaua finishes 1st and goes in the UCL
steaua finishes 2nd and automaticaly goes in the UC
steua finishes 3-16 and doesnt qualify regullary, but she is TH

same in spain case: lets say: villareal wins UCL and relegates, its not fair that a 4th team in the primera is thrown away of the UCL by a relegated team, isnt it !

Author: badgerboy
Date: 10-04-2006, 02:03

Dinamo

You may think that should happen but it wont.

In the UEFA Cup there are - I guess - three possibilities for Romania next year if Steaua win the UEFA Cup.

Firstly, if Steaua are Champions in Romania they will enter the CL qualifying rounds and the two Romanian teams who qualify for the UEFA Cup will enter in their normal places in the draw. No extra teams.

Secondly if Steaua are second in Romania they will enter in Round 1 - in the TH spot - the second Romanian team will enter in the qualifying round as normal. No extra team.

Thirdly - if Steaua are third (or lower) in Romania then they still take the TH spot but the two Romanian teams (Cup Winner and second in the league) also qualify and start in the qualifying rounds. The only scenario where Romania gets an extra place.

For the other countries still in the UEFA Cup. Middlesbro are unlikely to qualify for Europe next season through their league position but are still in the FA Cup (Quarter-Final reply this week). Should they reach the final they are in Europe next season and the TH spot would not be taken up if they won the UEFA Cup.
Schalke will almost certainly qualify for either the CL or UEFA Cup through league position so would not take up the TH spot. Sevilla are currently 5th in La Liga so would not currently use the TH spot, although they are only two points ahead of the 7th place team so could yet finish outside a qualifying position.

I wont go into the CL position again here but you should be able to find it on numerous other threads if you are interested.

Author: dinamo_fan_4_ever
Date: 10-04-2006, 06:23
Edited by: dinamo_fan_4_ever
at: 10-04-2006, 06:24

yes , but this kind of entry is not benethic because lets see the scenario when lets say real madrid fights for the last remaining place of the UC with sevilla, having the direct match between them in the last matchday and seviila wins the uefa cup, then, it will be more then sure that sevilla will let real win so that real takes a uefa cup place also and that isnt fair play. this situation would have more chances to happen in a country "less fairplay" like romania where steaua, winning the uefa cup for instance and having a gap behind 1st place would let another team climb on second place so that 1 extra team appears. ( and there can be other "means" that can "help" a TH let another team take her place in the national league)

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 10-04-2006, 12:30

@dinamo_fan_4_ever

You say that there is a spot in both competition for the TH, but it is already clear that there won't be 5 teams from one country in the CL again.
So let's assume this situation: Villarreal wins the CL and doesn't qualify for the CL and UEFA-cup via the league. And the winner of the UEFA-cup doesn't qualify for the CL or UEFA-cup via their league.

So when you want to give Spain a extra place in UEFA-cup (to the number 6, because they won't get one since the number 4 is demoted from CL to UEFA-cup), you need 2 "TH" spots. I can't see how you should include this in the accesslist.

Author: dawgs
Date: 10-04-2006, 13:48

I'll try to further clarify things - or further confuse them.

Illogical as it may seem to some of us, winning a cup in Europe doesn't automatically win a country an extra spot in the competition.

Example of this we saw last year w/ CSKA Moscow and Russia. If you go back to 1986 you'll see that Steaua winning the European Cup didn't win Romania an extra place either, as Steaua have already qualified t'ru the domestic league.

The TH will merit an extra place, only if they have failed to otherwise qualify for the tournament they won. Winners like Sevilla finishing outside the top 6 in Spain, or Steaua finishing outside the top 3 in Romania, or Boro failing a final in the FA cup are the only UEFA cup options this year.

The point is that TH spot benefits the defending champs, regardless of what country they come from.

Re: The "Spain situation" and UEFA Cup access list.
Author: panda Date: 12-04-2006, 11:10	Yeah, I presume the UEFA principle is: 1) TH has right to defend title (endlessly debated after the Liverpool CL win) 2) therefore rules should allow this, but disturbing the rest of the participants as little as possible (hence no effect on team numbers from that country unless impossilbe otherwise)