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Dinamo - Everton
Author: Martijn_Lok Date: 15-09-2005, 22:27 Edited by: Martijn_Lok at: 15-09-2005, 23:03	Most surprising score so far: Dinamo - Everton 5-1 !

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: kurt Date: 15-09-2005, 22:47	i totally agree with you, a great result, everton wanted to be in champions league and now out in round 1 uefacup

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: peter Date: 16-09-2005, 06:12 Edited by: peter at: 16-09-2005, 06:17	A magic night for romanian football Dinamo B- Everton 5-1 Valerenga -Steaua B 0-3 Feyenoord - rapid B 1-1 Dinamo Bucharest played magnific specialy in the second half ,when they scored 4 times in 38 minutes.

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: Nick Date: 16-09-2005, 08:33	Big shock for Everton. Congrats Dinamo If all goes well in 14 days we can have 3 romanian, 3 bulgarian and 2 serbian teams in UEFA GS We could start a small Balkan Cup here

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: christi Date: 16-09-2005, 08:38	Hehe, good point. For Rapid it's going to be tough, Feyenoord are a strong team and they can easily turn around the result in Bucharest. But Steaua and Dinamo are as good as through.

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: WiSK23 Date: 16-09-2005, 13:15	I guess we won't be seeing any more of the poster named EFC...

Author: EFC
Date: 16-09-2005, 21:25

Not at all WiSK23, I don't hide away after a bad result!

Everton were atrocious last night in the second half, but it is not so surprising. We have largely average players who excelled themselves last season and deserve credit for that (as does the coach) but they are being found wanting now and perhaps it is partially that some of the pleyers now think they are better than what they are, which can happen. It is not just in Europe, we have started the domestic season very badly. Tactically we were mistaken last night, the defense was extremely poor, and we showed an abject lack of confidence after going 2-1 behind. We were OK til half-time, after the break we fell apart. Having said all that, and without wishing to excuse Everton's own failings, you do have to give a lot of credit to Dinamo Bucuresti who played very well and almost scored from all their shots on target, I wish we could have employed such good finishing. Regardless of Everton's failings, it is an excellent result for Dinamo and for Romanian football. You can only congratulate them for playing so well and achiveing such an amazing result, and perhaps surprising a lot of those people who may not hold Eastern European teams in a high regard.

Having said that, the way we have been playing, I expected to quite possibly lose the away leg but probably win the tie overall, especially as although we were disapointing against Villareal, we held our own against them. So never would I have expected a result as bad as that last night. It is Everton's worst ever defeat in European football by a big margin. Such is life...

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: kurt Date: 16-09-2005, 23:26 Edited by: kurt at: 16-09-2005, 23:26	3 bulgarian teams ? i think just 1 team in next round

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: walter-wade Date: 17-09-2005, 00:59	No Bulgarian team will qualify for the group stage. Levski Sofia-Auxerre : 2 or X Lokomotive Plovdiv- Bolton:2 or X Genk-Lovech:1 CSKA-Leverkusen Bayer:2 (2 or more differences)

Author: WiSK23
Date: 18-09-2005, 02:56

My apologies EFC, I saw you had started to post just after Everton were placed in European competition, but I assumed you were only here as long as your team was going to progress. I was wrong about that.

It is a shame for your coach David Moyes that he must experience such a high learning curve. The supporters will be disappointed of course, but to see the big difference between strategies in the EPL and otherwise in Europe is sometimes a shock. I remember watching Ipswich against some Danish team a few years back and the one thing that occured to me was that the fitness is very important. I think that Everton were very tired in the end, they did not realise that you must fight to the end. Very strange considering that on the continent we always assume that English teams fight to the bitter end but it is a different game over there.

Author: Nick
Date: 18-09-2005, 08:01
Edited by: Nick
at: 18-09-2005, 08:02

Walter-wade: You really expect the bunch of loosers paying under the name Bayer 04 to win with 2 or more goals difference in Sofia? Wishfull thinking is that

With the joke they call defence they will get at least 2 goals in Sofia as they did in Leverkusen. CSKA scored a regular second goal btw in the BayArena that was unrightfully disallowed and even the official site of Bayer admitted there was no offside

Author: Kananga
Date: 18-09-2005, 12:50

Everton overachieved last year, but I think their confidence has just taken a hammering this season with the poor start and the circumstances of the defeat to Villarreal (Collina's disallowed goal!). Now the Dinamo loss will take more out of them.

re. WiSK23 "but to see the big difference between strategies in the EPL and otherwise in Europe is sometimes a shock"

Apart from a handful of teams in the our league (Chelsea, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc.) I believe the rest isn't up to much. There are some very mediocre teams in the Premiership that other European teams should feel they have a great chance against.

I think the division of TV money is a big factor in this - some of it's divided equally, some via finishing place prize money & some via how many times you appear on TV. The last one is the big killer that seperates the Man Utd's and Midddlesbrough's of the world. Then when you add CL money of Ł15m-20M for United & Ł0m for Middlesbrough it compounds the problem!

The FAPL should take a leaf out of the American book on 'competitive balance'. They recognise that the league only stays interesting if it's got a healthy level of competition and that more than just a handful of sides have a shot of winning. We haven't got the draft to do this, so it should be done with equalising out virtually all of the TV money. I can't say I'm that optimistic though

FAPL should really take note of some of the falling attendances also. Not only in the league, but the UC - Bolton didn't sell out their debut in Europe & Middlesbrough only had 14,191 (35,000 stadium)!

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: ralfinho Date: 19-09-2005, 00:31	kananga, do you happen to know a link concerning the exact distribution of the Premiership's TV money? Thx.

Author: EFC
Date: 19-09-2005, 06:41

No worries WiSK, actually I have come onto this site for some years as I have always had an interest in European football and how UEFA's seeding system works, but only began posting a few months back, though this was nothing to do with Everton's qualification though I can see it may have looked like that. I don't actually post on here all the time anyway, I have only just read your response on my 'Underachiveing Teams' post about Dutch cites populations and their teams sucess, I havent been on here for a few weeks I think. I was surprised to discover FC Twente and Roda JC come from quite small towns since they strike me as being two of the bigger clubs in the Netherlands outside the big 3.

Curiously, Moyes supposedly employed long-ball tactics deliberately on Thursday because he thought that was the best game-plan to beat Dinamo, though now obviously he feels he made a major mistake. Still, he is still a young coach and still has plenty to learn. With regard to fitness, that is actually what Moyes himself said was a major problem, though this is strange because Moyes is renowned as being very good at keeping his players a top fitness levels and we have been known for competing for the full 90 minutes usually.

I am obviously very disapointed that Everton will not, barring miracles, be continuing in Europe this year, but I will follow the European calender just as closely anyway...

Author: Kananga
Date: 19-09-2005, 12:29

Ralfinho, from:

http://www.premierleague.com/fapl.rac?command=forwardOnly&nextPage=enFaqs&categ
oryCode=AboutUs#3

"The Premier League’s current Ł1.024 billion deal with BSkyB runs over the course of three seasons from August 2004"

"50% of total money goes on an equal share basis to the 20 FA Premier League clubs, while relegated clubs also receive some of this money in the form of a parachute payment. 25% of the money is paid as facility fees, which are determined by the number of appearances on television. 25% is paid in merit payments, determined by the position that a club finished in the league."

(There are 138 matches live on Sky/PPV TV)

I think there are similar problems, perhaps in Spain and certainly Italy. The massive individual TV deals of Inter, Juventus & Milan + the huge amounts they get from the CL has opened a chasm in that league. At least the FAPL still has a collective deal for all 20 clubs and not individual rights. But, with the EU stepping in and meddling (They want to end the Sky TV monopoly) everything is up in the air for the next TV deal.

This current deal though has a bias towards to the bigger, more commercially successful clubs. Then the huge sums generated by clubs in the CL dwarfs other clubs completely - and thats before you get to Chelsea

Author: mjwillan
Date: 19-09-2005, 12:44

Ending the Sky monopoly for the EPL will reduce the amount of money the lesser clubs get.

Either all teams will have separate TV deals, in which case Liverpool, Man Utd, Arsenal and Newcastle will make the most and the likes of Sunderland, West Ham, Wigan and Portsmouth will struggle to sell their TV rights.

If they still negotiate a collective deal but are forced to sell some of the rights to free-to-air TV then Sky will pay a lot less for the games they get. Sky needs the exclusive rights as it forces people to have satellite dishes, if people can watch 1 game a week on free-to-air TV then Sky will lose a lot of subscriptions. This way all the teams will end up with less money than now.

English cricket has just sold exclusive rights to Test Matches to Sky - I believe that Sky offered twice as much as the free-to-air Channel 4. The cricket governing body has been criticised for selling the rights to Sky, but for twice the money who can blame them?

Author: Kananga
Date: 19-09-2005, 20:44

Agree mjwillan - even though I'm no fan of monopolies and particularly this one! If it's broken in the current climate I think it will be a bad deal all round. No free UK TV channel could afford the contracts right now, so they'll probably end up with either Setanta or NTL and the viewer will have to take out more subscriptions (and I find it unlikely Sky would reduce their subscription much!). The clubs will certainly not generate Ł1.1bn also.

At least commissioner Monti, who crazily wanted individual selling, is gone now! This has damaged Serie A without doubt imho and like you say would split the Premiership clubs further apart.

The "artificial pricing" issues and all the deals between FAPL & BSkyB should be rightfully questioned. But, it strikes me as more EU meddling and interference when some of the ideas proposed (individual selling) would not be in the best interests of the league, the clubs and probably the viewers.

The English cricket is another thing. It's a pity we can't see any free for four years and the money for the ECB is understandable, but they also have a remit to ensure the healthy growth & popularity of the game - which this deal neglects I believe.

Author: ralfinho
Date: 20-09-2005, 01:22

Kananga,
thanks for your info. So, about 350 million GBP (I don't have the Pound symbol on my keyboard) are distributed per season. 50 % are 175 million, so that every PL club receives about 10 million. How are the other 175 million distributed? I.e. how much receives e.g. Man Utd and how much Wigan?

mjwillan,
we have the same discussion here in Germany, but the other way round. The pay TV station would pay higher amounts if the free TV stations wouldn't have any emission rights anymore.
At first glance, you would say that's good for the clubs. However, the main sponsors of the Bundesliga clubs (e.g. German Telecom for Bayern Munich) have already announced that they would reduce their payments in this case, as their logos couldn't be seen anymore by the majority of the public. So, for the big clubs the increase of the pay TV money would be lesser than the decrease of the sponsor money.

Is this a topic in the UK?

As far as I know the PL clubs receive much less money from their main sponsors than comparable clubs in Germany. Bayern receives from German Telecom about 15 million Euro per year, Man Utd from Vodafone, if I remember right, less than 10 million. Could it be possible that this has something to do with pay TV / free TV?

Re: Dinamo - Everton
Author: mjwillan Date: 20-09-2005, 11:49	Hadn't thought about the sponsors issue - I've not heard any complaints. However, Everton are sponsored by Chang Beer and that isn't available in the UK - it must be worthwhile for them to advertise to the Far East, so I guess sponsorship isn't an issue in England!

Author: Kananga
Date: 20-09-2005, 13:11
Edited by: Kananga
at: 20-09-2005, 13:15

Re Ralfinho: "How are the other 175 million distributed? I.e. how much receives e.g. Man Utd and how much Wigan? "

It's split into two slices of approx Ł87.5m.

One is distributed depending on where you finish in the league. I don't know the approximate recent 04/05 divide but this link shows how it was done in 02/03, when Ł105m was distributed in prizes:

http://www.footballtransfers.net/tournaments/merit0203.html

The other chunk is distributed on how many times you appear on Sky TV. I think each club is guaranteed at least three appearances, but after that it's up to Sky TV - and they usually screen far more of the bigger, well supported clubs.

For each showing on Sky TV, the club receives an appearance fee. I can't find the exact fee, but I'd guess its probably between Ł0.5 - Ł1m. So with the prize money + TV money + CL money, the balance has gradually shifted more and more over the 13 FAPL years to the bigger clubs.

One of the particularly unhealthy things is the gap between the Premiership and the Football League (72 clubs below).

The Premiership has a deal of Ł1.1bn covering three years - the Football League one for just Ł110m also covering three years! Some clubs are frightened like hell to fall out of the Premiership.

It's ridiculous that this gap has been allowed to exist and that clubs can face going bankrupt just for being relegated. But that's one of the consequences since the formation of FAPL in 1992

re; The sponsorship issues - Maybe it's because Germany has a higher population & bigger market that they have these deals? The English Premiership clubs still get some free TV exposure on the highlights shows, CL & FA Cup. I think the recent Chelsea deal with Samsung eclipsed the United deal also.

I'd guess though that the Sky TV deal would be drastically reduced if the FAPL were to forced by the EU to show some matches on free TV. Sky pays a lot especially for exclusive coverage. Perhaps the clubs value of this is higher than the potential for greater sponsorship from going on free TV more often?

Author: Growler
Date: 21-09-2005, 07:58

everton were lucky to get away with the 5 goals, it should have been more. Frankly, it was embarressing being a supporter of any english team. I don't think they will be back in a hurry though!

As for the money issue, its the champions league which has caused the problem, not the premier league. The premier league was getting money before when teams like ipswich, villa were able to finish top 4 or 5. With the champions league money being so superior to the uefa cup, its no surprise that the top 4 will consolidate.

who would be surprised if the top in england are chelsea, Man U, arsenal and liverpool? (not necessarily in that order).

Until UEFA say top 2 teams in the champions league, and uefa for the rest, and then uefa winner guaranteed a spot in the following champions league, and take away the safety net from the champions league the whole thing is primed for collapse.

finally, if the whole seeding aspect was scrapped, teams like thun, etc could make good ground in the CL, and pave the way going forward. The way it is, genuine champions from some countries don't even get a shot at the CL. a bit sad when you look back over the seedings as recent as the 80's.