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Author: nelster
Date: 13-09-2005, 12:00

My own team is Rangers.

We have been very poor the last few games since beating Celtic. However that is not to say that the players are not good, beating Celtic proved we have plenty of quality.

We have not settled into a pattern of play, all good teams have a style, a trademark that you can see goals coming from but can't stop. At the moment the Rangers players do not seem to have a pattern or any way of achieving one.

The only plus point for Rangers is that in the 3 big games this season, Anorthosis and Celtic they have found a fantastic passing game and some inspirational individual goals.

However deep down I think confidence is too low and tonight will end 0-0, Porto will be happy, Rangers will be happy not to lose.

We also have a TIFO arranged for tonight, there are some pictures of it being setup here http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php4?t=81058 (apologies if links are prohibited).

How does everyone else feel?

Author: anita
Date: 13-09-2005, 12:35

Well, nelster, I think Rangers supporters are pretty pleased with the season. CL partipication and beating Celtic, and not to forget, Celtic humiliated by Artmedia. And a relatively easy group in CL, which will at least bring them to third place and UC3.

I look forward to the match Rangers-Porto tonite. This is the battle for 2nd place (sorry, Artmedia). Porto have shown some weakness in their play so far in Portuguese league, but I think they will beat Rangers. Even a draw in Glasgow will lessen Rangers' chances for 2nd place considerably.

PS: Since I live in Portugal now, I will not be able to see my Rosenborg against Olympiakos, but that's probably for the best.

Author: porto-1978
Date: 13-09-2005, 12:51
Edited by: porto-1978
at: 13-09-2005, 13:02

I?m sure that FC Porto will not be pleased if the game finish 0-0. Not that a draw is a bad result but scoring no goals in the actual FC Porto is not a good thing. An exciting 2-2 or something like that will please much more my team. But i think Porto will win. 2-3 is my guess. I hope a great show!

For the competition in general i feel quite confident about my club. I hope a lot of goals scored but also some conceded. I think Porto?s defense is far from perfect and that makes me a bit nervous specially against good strikers (as Adriano or Prso...) But i have confidence that the attack will score usually one or more goals than the goals that the defense conceed... Let?s see, hope to be not too wrong. It starts today but this 8 hours is a long time to wait!

Anita, in Sport TV (pay-tv) there?s an interactive mode that permit to choose the CL game you want to see. It?s just to press one key or another (in the remote command) and you choose your game! If you don?t have Sport TV at home (as me!) you?ll have to find a coffee/bar with it and ask to put the Athens game... Easier if the bar is more or less empty or else people will prefer to see Inter, Real or Chelsea game... Anyway if it is not possible hope you enjoy Rangers-Porto!

Author: nelster
Date: 13-09-2005, 12:56

believe me Anita, many Rangers fans are not happy about the season.

It is a strange time to be a Rangers fan, from May 22nd when we won the league to the Celtic game, it was non-stop heaven.

But to watch the Rangers side just now is depressing, the manager has not taken the team and moulded it yet, and at the moment it seems that the captain Ferguson is dictating after 30 minutes of a game what system we should play.

If we win tonight it will be again down to the individual talent of Prso and Buffel not a tactical masterplan. You can only survive for so long on that basis.

Author: nelster
Date: 13-09-2005, 12:59

porto-1978, I hope your fans enjoy the TIFO we have for tonight. We have given your fans Blue and White Cards to join in with our Red/White/Blue theme.

They can be seen in the link I posted originally.

Bit of a horrible day in Glasgow, wet and cold, quite windy as well.

I would suggest the Rangers manager will be cautious and play the following team.

4-4-1-1

Waterreus
FanFan Kyrgiakos, Rodriguez, Bernard
Ricksen, Ferguson, Rae, Murray
Buffel
Prso

Author: porto-1978
Date: 13-09-2005, 13:10

Nelster, Porto fans will enjoy the cards unless you give them red cards (not a pleasant colour for FCP fans).

I don?t know wich team will play with the alternative equipment. I think for this season FCPorto alternative equipment is light blue. Will be strange if they play with it and Rangers in dark blue... I think Porto asked premission to play in another colour, i don?t know wich... I?m curious about that.
Cheers!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: porto-1978 Date: 13-09-2005, 13:16	Oh by the way i think Porto will play: Baía Sonkaya, R.Costa, Emanuel, Peixoto Ibson/Meireles, Lucho Jorginho, Diego, Lisandro/Alan/Quaresma Sokota/Almeida/Lisandro/Alan I?d choose Meireles, Lisandro on the left wing and Almeida in the front for this game. Probably Adriaanse choice will be Alan on the left wing and Lisandro on the front.(?)

Author: exile
Date: 13-09-2005, 13:24
Edited by: exile
at: 13-09-2005, 13:29

anita

you should be able to watch Rosenborg via satellite/cable - the Olympiakos match is certainly on Sky.

As for Rangers, they have certainly been inconsistent to say the least, are probably a less good team even than a couple of years ago, and Porto have had a 100% start to their season, in a league of similar strength. A draw would be the best I can hope for.

The bookmakers (the British ones anyway) have Rangers as slight favourites, but I'm not tempted by the odds.

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Malko Date: 13-09-2005, 13:30	I have good hopes that my teams (lyon and Lille) will pass the group-stage, and even for Lyon, I think they can make it this year to the final.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 13-09-2005, 13:50

I guess Rangers-Porto will sooner be 2-2 than 0-0 as both defenses are not terific and both teams will play to win.
As this is a generic topic I'd like to also put the worries on for my team, PSV. They lost a lot of important players this summer (vBommel, Park, Lee, Vogel, Bouma) and are not a bit of what they were last year. I hope Schalke is happy with a draw - being afraid of last years' PSV - otherwise...

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: nelster Date: 13-09-2005, 14:13	Ricardo, that's my big bet for tonight, Schalke to dump PSV. Germany - Holland match-up, will be fiery, PSV in a new era after so many players leaving. How is Michael Ball doing???? (he can't play CL so who does???)

Author: anita
Date: 13-09-2005, 14:21

Agree, Ricardo, I don't think the match will end goalless. But it can be a draw anyway, and with 5-10 minutes left and 1-1, Porto may feel this a good result....And exile, yes, Porto have full points after three matches, but their play have not been very convincing.

And off topic, thx for advice regarding SPORT TV and Sky. I don't have neither, and I will find it peculiar if I find a bar/pub - even in a "big" city like Faro - which pays for SPORT TV with no clients tonite or clients that want to look at the Athens match. And I can hardly take a "walkabout" NOW to ask if a bar/pub will show Rosenborg instead of Porto (or Real or..). It would be lousy business by the pub owner to promise me that. Actually, I (think I) prefer Rangers - Porto. A decisive match for the advancement in group. Ahh, whatever

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Ricardo Date: 13-09-2005, 14:25	Defense probably Reiziger, Ooijer, Addo, Lucius. Midfield Afellaay, Cocu, Somons. Attack Beasley, Vennegoor, Farfan On the bench are Lamey, Zoetebier, Beerens, Ferreyra, Robert and Assiati(together good for a total of 35 minutes in the competition sofar) I won't take any bet on PSV

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Malko Date: 13-09-2005, 14:57	I think PSV will easily win this match. Schalke is really not very strong.

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: ralfinho Date: 13-09-2005, 16:47	Well, first of all, I'm glad that CL starts again. For me, the most interesting matches of tonight are Betis-Liverpool (will be tough for the Reds), Rangers-Porto, PSV-Schalke and Lyon-Real. Seems that in the first three, the contenders for rank 2 meet each other. Lyon-Real will show how competitive Lyon will be in this season.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 13-09-2005, 17:26
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 13-09-2005, 17:28

Yes, Ralfinho, I'm happy that the new campaign starts again.

All the big names are present, with the exceptions of Valencia, Depor and Monaco. That will be great. New joiners are exciting. I am very interested to watch teams like Villareal, Betis or Udinese that all have been very promising last year.

As a Lyon fan, I am certainly very excited by the Lyon - Real game. This might be pure pleasure for football fans tonight. Hopefully, not only football fans but Lyon fans will be happy after the game. We will see. That will be tough for sure and Real cannot afford to lose 2 games in a row and the team looks like fired up after their Celta Vigo game.
This said, the key issue for Lyon is to go through and this will certainly be more difficult than last year as a lot of people fear Olympiakos (that deserved to go through last year in a very difficult group).

The Villareal - ManU game is very exciting too. Villareal is an attractive team and for me one of the most ambitious challengers. Interesting test tonight.
The other anglo-spanish game Betis - Liverpool is very interesting too. The loser, if any, might have some troubles in this group of the death.
Any upset tonight ? let's bet a coin on Werder Bremen vs. Barca. Werder is playing well, is more experienced than last year while Barca just start their season.

Author: mjwillan
Date: 13-09-2005, 17:32

As a Liverpool fan I'm looking forward to the new campaign. I think the first 3 games will determine how we do in the group (Betis away, Chelsea home and Anderlecht away) - if we can get 4 points we will be in a good position to go through.

The next 2 games will be Anderlecht and Betis at home and if we can't win both of those then we won't go through.

We really don't want to go to Chelsea for the last game needing anything as I don't expect any help from them!!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: ralfinho Date: 13-09-2005, 18:04	Lyonnais, well, I think the Real defense is still not the best. Even if Ramos will be fielded instead of Pavon. So, Fred will have his chances ... In German TV, the comment to Fred's goals in the Lyon - Monaco match last weekend was "Yabbadabbadooo". mjwillan, I think (at least) 5 points out of the first three matches are realistic. Draw today, win in Anfield, at least a draw in Brussels.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 13-09-2005, 18:14
Edited by: Lyonnais
at: 13-09-2005, 18:21

Yes, on American TV (FSC), they also look like very excited too.

Lyon even had the supreme honour to have their goals vs. Monaco be shown on Sky Sports News last saturday and they said that it was an impressive start from Fred.
I believe that this is the first time ever that I see goals from the French League on Sky Sports News (they usually prefer showing goals from all English divisions, including Conference, and then, if they have time left, they show 20 seconds of the Real or Milan game).

This said, last year, we bought a young Brazilian striker called Nilmar, who also scored twice in his first game. That was even better as he went on the pitch at the 75th minute at 0-0, then scored twice. He has not scored any other goal afterwards in the League ..

So, wait and see. First winter in Europe is always difficult for Brazilian players.

Author: anita
Date: 13-09-2005, 19:56

ralfinho, how many years ago is it that you could lean back and trust Real Madrids defence?? Since you have been around on Forum for a while, I warned everyone two years ago that Real would be in serious trouble with their left flank open every time Roberto Carlos "went Brazilian". With their man-to-man defence and not zone they were in serious trouble all the time.

They bought Gravesen last year. No offense, but he is not the recipe. Ramos may be, and please, not to be too chauvinistic, but I think the Norwegian John Carew in Lyon has finally matured, and Fred and Carew may create some mayhem for Real. I hope...Ahhh, as a football afficionada and not from Madrid, who wouldn't want Real too get their nose punched (again), especially by a French team??

See you around. Have to find a place that show Rosenborg match....Just joking. Rangers - Porto rules!!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Lyonnais Date: 13-09-2005, 23:46	my feeling about CL ?? I feel good Anita > great performance for Rosenborg that managed to do what Liverpool, Monaco and Depor were unable to achieve last year.

Author: ralfinho
Date: 14-09-2005, 00:58

anita,
I remember well that our views of the Real's defense was always common.

However, I thought that they learnt their lesson, signing Woodgate last year and Ramos this year. But it didn't help.

Congrats, too, for Rosenborg. Did you see the 2nd goal now? Wonderful show, especially of Niko.

Lyonnais, mjwillan,
what did I tell you?

The first third of my red heart feels very well now. Hope that the two other thirds will feel as well tomorrow.

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: mjwillan Date: 14-09-2005, 09:42	I'm feeling much better about the CL now!! Is there a danger of Betis becoming the whipping boys of the group like Deportivo last year? I hope they learn from last night and tighten up their defence against Anderlecht and Chelsea!!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: anita Date: 14-09-2005, 09:55	Since Rosenborgs only chance to play in Europe next season is to win CL or UC, well, here we go!

Author: Ricardo
Date: 14-09-2005, 10:32

CL-Winner, that would be great. Also we would know more about how the new Holder-rule would apply to non top-3 countries.
I guess now you regret not seeing Rosenborg iso Porto. Next time!
First win is there for PSV, I hope Fenerbahce is not as good as it seemed - holding Milan to 1-1 for a long time. I can't wait till next match.
A lot of surprises in 1 night for me. I don't count on it tonight (but if I would, it wouldn't be a surprise!)

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: fenerli Date: 14-09-2005, 10:56	As a Fenerbahce-fan I feel on one side sad about loosing against Milan after holding so long a draw and on the other side I feel proud because we show that we keep up with teams like Milan. I looking very forward to the game against PSV. I think it will be a very close game at Sükrü Saracoglu Stadium in Istanbul.

Author: nelster
Date: 14-09-2005, 11:24

Well I am still none the wiser about Rangers!

I cannot fathom for the life of me how we won that game.

The way I sw it....

0-30 minutes Porto were technically superior, Rangers were as I said pre-match a team with no morale and devoid of any pattern of play.

30-45 minutes Rangers began to dictate the Direct style. Prso challenge that left the Porto player in pieces seemed to frighten his team-mates, several times they began to back out of challenges. Barry Ferguson took control and played his best spell since Parma 1999.

The second half was simply crazy, as was Adriaanse decision to take off Diego.

Very bad luck for porto but after Rangers heartbreak against Monaco and Bayern Munich in the CL it was great to get the luck.

Sorry again if links are prohibited, Rangers fans did a TIFO last night, there are lots of excellent pictures here

http://forum.followfollow.com/showthread.php4?t=81900

Author: porto-1978
Date: 14-09-2005, 12:54
Edited by: porto-1978
at: 14-09-2005, 12:56

The way i saw it:
- First 30 minutes Porto played a lot and could score more than one goal. 7 shoots and none for Rangers. The stadium was quiet and Porto giving a brutal show.
- Then first shoot and goal for Rangers giving moral to the home team and until de end of the first half very confusing game. Porto always better in the air balls (incredible, no?) and a decisive move was when Emanuel was going to put the head on the ball and Prso gone crazy without a chance to touch the ball and just broke the nose to our defense sending him away (he will not play at least next game with Braga). So Porto had to change the defense wasting one substitution that later on was needed...
- Second half started with 1-1. Porto still playing better but then Prso made an irregular goal. You can see that with his left hand Prso put Baía out of the play inside the restricted area!! This after dangerous kick by Rangers player that shoot the ball too high! This was a double irregular goal in any part of the world!
- Then Porto made the other two substitutions and gone even more on attack. Diego gone out because destructive Rangers game was giving him no chances to explore his talent and sooner or later he could get injuried. Porto made the second goal but then Sokota gone injuried and left the team with just 10 players for the last quarter of hour!
- Another lucky strike and the 3rd Rangers goal coming from nothing. Porto unable to draw again with just 10 players. Still almost did it.

So, Porto is much better and will smash the scots at home. Rangers was very lucky. Adriaanse is great and i like him. But sometimes the risk is too much. He just don?t care about the defense. Incredible. This time it didn?t worked but i believe it will work many times. I just don?t agree with the presence of Sokota in the team. Hope he don?t play anymore in CL, maybe it was good he got injuried and maybe this 3 points lost gone for good...

How am i feeling? Sad and frustrated but still with hope!

Congratulations to all the winners, specially to Lyon and Rosenborg!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: nelster Date: 14-09-2005, 13:52	I can't disagree with anything you have said porto-1978 One word of caution, your team last night reminded me of Rangers under Dick Advocaat, so pleasing on the eye but deep down weak in defence when it really matters.

Author: ianmorrison
Date: 14-09-2005, 14:13

I watched the Rangers-Porto match and although Rangers might have been a bit lucky, Porto's second goal was the luckiest of the night. Pepe knew nothing about it. It just hit off him in the box.

Addrianse made some strange decisions. To have used all 3 subs so early in such a physical game was very risky.

Prso's goal would often be ruled out by the referee but I think the goalkeeper should have done better as he didn't make a real attempt at the ball and almost waited for the referee to blow the whistle.

In summary I thought both defences were a shambles with all 5 goals not requiring any great play to create. The game could have gone either way but luck was on Rangers side. I think Rangers will find it difficult in Porto but if Porto don't sort out their defence, they will find it tough to qualify.

In coefficients terms, this was a huge result for Rangers as they really can't afford to finish 4th in the group or their seeding will suffer and they may not even be seeded in next years CL 3rd QR should they get there. This result goes a long way to helping Rangers coefficient.

Author: porto-1978
Date: 14-09-2005, 16:22

Thanks for the word of caution, i really see what you mean...

Pepe?s second goal is a bit lucky but all player in that position try to touch the ball to the box. He done that the way he could! I think that goal is a bit responsability of a defender that was just concerned to take Sokota away from the move... he could save the ball on the line if he was there instead.

Adriaanse made early substitutions because Prso broke Emanuel nose. He had to make it. Then in second half he was loosing with more or less half an hour to play. Of course he could had made just one substitution and keep the other for later on. That was a mistake, agree. Would be better to change one and then another.

Prso goal is irregular to my eyes. Not only because Prso puted Baia down with his hand when both were jumping (nobody can jump if someone do that) but also the ball gets that trajectory because was kicked by a Ranger player, at my eyes in irregular way. If you see again the images try to notice that he kicks the ball almost at head level. There?s Porto defenders very near that can?t put the head on the ball because of that "dangerous play" (is this the english expression to call when a player kick a ball too high?)

About the return game i said Porto will smash but maybe it will not be exactly that. FCP have means to do it but also need the luck that this time was with RFC.

Author: exile
Date: 14-09-2005, 18:09

I'll accept Porto were "unlucky" last night - but they used up a lot of luck in winning the UC in 2003 and the CL in 2004! Let a Scottish team have a chance of some good luck - we need it.

Inter's 1-0 win over Artmedia should remind us that Artmedia are quite capable of taking a couple of points off Porto and/or Rangers.

Rangers picked up 3 points which they probably didn't expect to get (well - I didn't expect it) and that will boost their morale. The way they are playing, they could well fall apart in the other games - but you never know.

Author: anita
Date: 14-09-2005, 20:24

exile, if Rangers have any ambitions, they had to win the home match vs Porto. Despite all the goals, what a terribly lousy match!!!!Especially after having last weekends firework in Portuguese league Sporting-Benfica close in mind.

As porto-1978 writes, after half-an-hour when everyone were expecting a two-three goals win to Porto, the match suddenly (or?) sank down to a quality that even I got homesick of (Norwegian football).

I too think that Porto will crush mediocre Rangers at home, but please, show me first! Hoping that Benfica and Lille will show some more tonite. Gee, yesterday was a wasted football evening! Well, I got a continuous update on SMS from Rosenborg-Olympiakos. In the end, I could not believe my phone....

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Gardolo Date: 14-09-2005, 20:28	I feel very badly! because there are no my UKR teams there, and teams which I support, Sparta and Artmedia are too weak now. So, I'll support probably Milan with Sheva

Author: ianmorrison
Date: 14-09-2005, 20:48

Anita, I usually enjoy reading your posts but one thing I have noticed is your anti old firm tones. If it was another underdog winning 3-2, i'm sure you wouldn't have the same tone. What caused this feeling towards the old firm? A past injustice?

Instead of focussing on Porto's shortcomings, you focus on Rangers being lucky and mediocre and stress that they will be crushed in Porto.

The game had 5 goals and plenty goalmouth action and yet you still say it was terribly lousy. I thought the game was very entertaining as it ebbed and flowed from one team to another. Despite the football not being of the highest quality, I find it hard to believe that a neutral football fan would not find the game at least interesting. I would love to watch Norwegian football if your games are better than that every week!

Congratulations to Rosenborg on their fine win but they also sound like they were very lucky!

Author: rbr
Date: 14-09-2005, 22:49

in case anyone else in europe actually didn,t realise , but according to the scottish media,s reaction rangers actually lost against porto . never mind that all over europe teams were getting more than their fair share of luck liverpool again in scotland you can only be brilliant any thing else doesnt matter i am losing the will to live . does this reaction from the press happen anywhere else in europe.

great result for rosenberg with a little bit of luck but who cares

Author: porto-1978
Date: 15-09-2005, 12:03

The game was competitive as a balanced rugby game, more or less. But what i really like is football. Scotish physical and destructive way of play don?t let a show to be good! (That?s why the artist Diego was substituted)

Exile, what you mean by Porto being lucky in 2002-04?!? Don?t be ridiculous, no team can be lucky enough to do what FCP did!!! You can be lucky once or twice, not 99 times in a row!!! That?s not lucky, is GOOD!
Porto won the CL with a 3-0 result. That can?t be luck! Porto could had won by the same result the UC if Celtic played more the ball and less the players or at least if the referee pushed the respective cards.
Celtic was lucky reaching that final and going to extra time. I?ll not talk about this again... But it happened in Seville more or less the same as tuesday: Porto players geting injuried due to "scotish style" and forced substitutions and players having to stay on the pitch in very bad conditions and then being without playing for long time!
By the way, exile said before scotish and portuguese leagues are "of similar strength". Do you really think so?!? Wow! Are you sure that you?re talking about football?

About if Porto will smash more or less Rangers at home. I prefer to watch it first. But remember that in 2002 Porto was not lucky (but far from brillant too) and lost 1-0 with Celtic in Scotland. In the return game 3-0 for Porto - Celtic couldn?t smell the ball.

Finally to ianmorrison... Thanks for making me laugh! Do you really think that between Rangers and Porto the underdog is Rangers?!? Do you want to compare the finantial status? How much spend Rangers per season? Don?t you like to see yourself as one of the richest clubs in the world? So leave the "underdog" label to those that really manage to be good with much less money! Look what Porto do with 50M€ or even less! Rangers must be the bigest finantial failure of Europe! The underdogs in this group are Artmedia and then Porto because they spend less money. Just because you are mediocre you can?t be the underdogs if you are rich and have "stars".

Author: nelster
Date: 15-09-2005, 12:34

Rangers most expensive signing since around 2002 has been Thomas Buffel at 2.3 million pounds.

I think the "we will smash Rangers" assumptions from Porto is unfair.

I stated before the game that Rangers were a club low on morale and equally low in terms of technical interplay between the players.

If I go back to the Rangers side which won the league and anihilated Celtic 4 weeks ago, it was a team full of brilliant passing and movement with Novo and Buffel showing pace akin to that of Diego and co.

Novo, Buffel, Prso have all had injuries during the summer, all 3 were struggling to be sharp for this season.

We have struggled to recreate last season's outstanding football.

So what option did we have against a technically excellent Porto side. If we had tried to match-up and play the same style we would have lost, we have the quality but not the confidence for that style just now.

We played rugged direct football, it worked.

I firmly believe that by November when we play Porto next, Rangers will be playing a different style of football coming back towards good passing and movement.

If we can beat Porto at our lowest level for quite a while I look forward to Novemeber!

In response to the cheap shots at porto, I thought they were an excellent side in 2003 and 2004 and throughly deserved to win both titles.

Author: porto-1978
Date: 15-09-2005, 13:06
Edited by: porto-1978
at: 15-09-2005, 13:13

At some moment Porto entered in Rangers?s way, playing more direct game... And only scored in corners!
In November will be diferent. Expect Rangers to be better but Porto is not in its better form too, by now... The team is quite young and new, i hope for progress and specially more defensive capacity. Of course it will be dificult to "smash" but the team will surely look for it... There?s a Adriaanse sentence i just love that is something like this: "When we play home we should win always by 3 goals". I find it great philosophy!

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Ricardo Date: 15-09-2005, 13:15	...though some luck was involved too: for instance a last minute goal against Manchester. Winning a title is always a combination of quality and a bit of luck. Luckily quality is the first thing you need for it. I would say Rangers is the underdog over Porto, as history has proven that Porto performs better in CL than Rangers. Simple as that, nothing to do with money spent, etc..

Author: exile
Date: 15-09-2005, 13:29

porto

OK - let's have a look at Portuguese-Scottish results over the last few years

1999 UC Celtic beat Vitoria Guimaraes
2002 EC Porto eliminated Celtic (group stage)
2003 UC Celtic beat Boavista
2003 UC Porto beat Celtic
2005 UC Rangers beat Funchal
2005 UC Hearts beat Braga

Overall match record (including Tuesday's result) -

Portugal won 2
Scotland won 6
Draws 4

Yes, I would say Scottish and Portuguese club football are on a similar level. A few big teams (2 in Scotland, 3 in Portugal), the rest struggling.

To win any knockout tournament (rather than a league) requires a large amount of luck. Would you not agree Liverpool had a huge share of luck in winning the CL in 2005?

When Celtic won the European Cup in 1967 they had a couple of lucky breaks - in particular their 1st goal in the final could have been ruled offside. That's football.

Were Porto REALLY the best team in Europe in 2004? Any more than Liverpool in 2005?

That is not to say that Porto's win was not a great achievement. But let's be realistic.

As for 2003 - Celtic were over-physical. Porto were attempting to win Oscars. Porto won, end of story. British teams have always been on the physical side - that's just the way they play. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. I'd like Scottish teams to rely more on skill but with the lack of talent at grass roots level I'm not sure that's possible at the moment.

Rangers' financial problems (debt equal to a year's turnover) are well known. As is their inability to succeed in Europe. And yet, Porto lost to them.

anita

The Scottish media certainly didn't rate Rangers' chances (and neither did I) and wrote the match up as if Rangers lost. Justifiable, as Rangers really are not playing well at the moment. But then sometimes luck intervenes. And if you win a game despite being played off the park it can do wonders for morale. Apart from luck, success in football is largely psychology! Sometimes a team worth 10 m euros can beat one worth 300 m (N Ireland 1 England 0)
and that's what makes the game so fascinating.

Well done to Rosenborg by the way.

Author: porto-1978
Date: 15-09-2005, 17:28

But you compared the leagues... It?s true portuguese clubs don?t perform very well with scotish.
Portuguese league have 18 clubs. Maybe too much so there?s always one or two quite weack teams. Maybe 6 of Porto?s points came from that (Estrela Amadora and Naval, with no ofense). But the 10 or 12 best teams of Portugal last year are better i think in average to the same number of best scotish teams. But then how i explain that Braga was eleminated by Hearts? OK it?s quite relative... But don?t forget that last year portuguese league was very competitive with Braga and Boavista along with the "big3" competing for the first places until almost the end. In my view the diference between the Old Firm and other clubs is bigger. Is also my opinion that football here have much more quality but that is probably even more relative.

In fact there?s no thing as luck. Or it happens to those who look for it. But sometimes it seems unfair. Still the winner is always who score more goals so...
About the last minute goal in Manchester we can call it luck but it was fully deserved after a great first leg game in wich ManUtd was lucky(or whatever) to score very early and that finished with 2-1 for Porto but it could had been a more expressive victory. In the second lef in Old Traffor Porto made also a great exibition and fight a lot. Deco and Maniche made the kilometers records in CL games in that game. It was superb to score that goal. Luck? There?s always some. But there was a lot of work and intention. Wonderfull free kick by McCarthy and Costinha in the right place to the second shoot. He knew his place was around there and just happened! Of course luck plays an important role, always.

Let?s forget Rangers-Porto lucky/unlucky subject. RFC deserve the victory as they scored more goals. Still i complaint about the 2nd goal (Prso hand pushing Baia down). And Emanuelle injury. If it was a normal ball discussion there was no card to show; if it was on porpouse it would mean red card for Prso. No yellow card in that situation. (IMO it was impossible to touch the ball so i assume the target was really Emanuelle?s nose; but hard to decide that?s why the referee choose the midlle term - yellow card - wich is an incorrect decision: red or no card)

Author: anita
Date: 15-09-2005, 20:11

ianmorrison, yes, I have a kind of bias against Old Firm. Maybe some Freudian thing in my childhood, but more likely that I am not to attracted by teams that are overrated and underachieving (almost every other year in Europe).

And for the love of whoever, many congrats to Rangers (supporters) for winning this important match. I have read that the quality of Rosenborg in Athens was shitty. Three shots on goal, two went in. Eehh, who cares?? Three points. Thx.

And I still want to see Porto smash Rangers in Porto (before predicting it). Rangers showed lot more stamina and inspiration (and transpiration) in Glasgow. That is (luckily) still countable in football, and that is one of the reasons I love the game. The "quality" is just for the newspapers and estetics. If I had been a Rangers supporter, I would have been in the seventh heaven after the match. Well, I am not...

Author: exile
Date: 15-09-2005, 23:11

Just feel it's a bit unfair to pick on the OF , considering that
there are plenty of overrated and underachieving moneybags clubs, some with rather dubious billionaire "sugardaddies", to choose from. The big clubs in the "big leagues" have all the cards stacked in their favour so I would have thought any challenge from outsiders, whether it be Porto, Ajax, Anderlecht, Celtic, Rangers or whoever, would be welcome.

And Rosenborg are my favourite non-Scottish club, too. Despite Norwegian imperialists conquering large parts of Scotland in the past!

Author: rbr
Date: 16-09-2005, 01:24

porto-1978 , it must be awful to watch football in portugal as not only do you need a manager , physio , doctor, trainers , it seems all the portugese teams need beauticians , make up artists , hairdressers , just in case any ruffian from another country gets any where near them and by some force of gravity they are propelled to the ground usually clutching their (and you choose their own favourite from this list ) knee , face , leg , ankle, thigh , head ,and my own personal favourite their throat only to make a remarkable recovery after the ref is conned into issuing a card. Not one person so far has said anything other than porto were by far the better team , but hey look at this weeks results , liverpool arsenal rosenberg ajax , all had more than their share of luck .
also rangers were i believe the only pot3 three side to win their match , and this with a team which the manager still doesnt which is his best formation , all we ask is a little praise until the inevitable collapse as we always start well then falter . so porto dry you eyes get your mother to give you a little hug and tell you the bogey man wont get you and then get a grip of yourself !!!!!

Author: ianmorrison
Date: 16-09-2005, 01:30

One thing we have to accept is that football is played in different ways in different countries and different teams. For example, people complained that Rangers "fought" their way to a win, but in the past Porto have been accused of "diving" their way to a win. And Porto can call it a "rugby" match but at times, I feel like i'm watching amateur dramatics with some teams from the continent.

It is just different styles and as much as porto fans feel cheated by Rangers aggressive style on tuesday, Scottish fans have felt cheated in the past when players from the continent dive and waste time, etc. No use complaining becasue at the end of the day, the referee is there to decide what is allowed and what is not.

Anita: I'm glad you're big enough to admit your slight bias against OF! But who overrates Rangers other than their own fans and you should know that supporters are biased! In fact, by the predictions on this site, I would say Rangers are underrated by most this season with some people predicting 4th in their group and many predicting defeats against Anothosis and Porto.

Porto: I didn't mean to make you laugh but of course Porto are favourites. They have won 2 european trophies recently whereas Rangers couln't even get out of the Uefa Cup group stages last season. Yes, Rangers are a "rich" club in some terms, but they are heavily in debt at the moment and have litle money to spend on players, if any. Nearly all our players are Bosmans in last year or two. Also, financial ststus is not what makes a team "favourite". Surely, that is clear. Also, I meant that Rangers were underdogs against Porto but obviously, Artmedia are underdogs in the group overall. No one claims anything different.

We would love to be able to "smash" teams at Ibrox too but unfortunately, we are not good enough at the moment so we have to be happy with any win however it is achieved.

I would say that Prso would have to be given the benefit of the doubt for his challenge on tuesday. He is certainly not known to be a player who would deliberately hurt another player. I'm sure any monaco fans would agree. He is just very committed-maybe too much sometimes it seems.

Been an interesting week, thats for sure!

Author: rbr
Date: 16-09-2005, 01:44

following on from what ianmorrison said , which i completely agree with , how prso can be slaughtered as he is getting for being half a second out is beyond me yet tackles like the one that could have broken fergusons ankle in the second half go unmentioned , also porto1978 forgets to mention how much porto raked in from not only winning the c/l approx £30million by uefas own figures but the £20million compensation paid by chelsea for mourhino , decos sale carvallihos sale , the two players who went to russia for over £20 million , god porto are really skint ,cause they only paid £5 million for diego oh and they also got £2million for valente from everton

Author: Joost
Date: 16-09-2005, 03:07

"but hey look at this weeks results , liverpool arsenal rosenberg ajax , all had more than their share of luck ."

Don't know what you mean, but ajax kind of outplayed sparta in 1st half and could/should have led 0-2/3 by halftime. In the end they were lucky to score the 1-1 in injurytime but sparta was really not that good. I thought they always managed to get a good team on the pitch but it was the worst I ever saw.

Re: How's Everyone Feeling about CL??
Author: Growler Date: 21-09-2005, 08:28	as a liverpool fan, where was our 'luck'? we scored 2 quality goals (anyone actually see them? ) and we conceded 1, therefore we won. If anything, andelecht were unlucky to lose to chelsea.