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Author: sampfan83
Date: 30-08-2005, 23:50

I am sorry for having to open a new topic for an issue that has already been disscused.

Last two years the draw of UEFA cup Round 1 was in a way predetermined by the distribution of the 80 teams in 8 groups of 10 (5 seeded and 5 unseeded in each group).

however, none of us was able to figure out how did uefa exactly decided to form these groups on the basis of last year's draw. I saw all the explanations on the way team coefficient ranking determines the order - but still non of us was able to reveal the list of these 8 groups before uefa did so in the morning of the draw.

then I hoped, on the basis of this year's draw, some of us could follow the trend of an (allegedly) used software that UEFA uses to form the groups of the 80 teams. Still, as I didn't find an adequate explanation, this is still a mystery to me. And I guess next year we will have a hard time in the end of august trying to figure it out again. Then we will compare last 2 years' draws and we will anyway start this topic. So I decided to reopen it now.

Please do not understand me in a wrong manner. All of us know the explanations and what the situation was before the draw on the 26th of august. I only open the topic for those of you who found a trend of the distribution teams in terms of this year's draw for UEFA Cup round 1. Please add anything that you believe UEFA takes into account deciding how to distribute the teams in these 8 groups of 10...

Re: UEFA Cup - Round 1 - Predraw!
Author: Nick Date: 31-08-2005, 09:28	I guess it's more simple that that. They just divide the teams in 10 pots and then avoid possible country protection issues by spreading teams from 1 country to different groups. I don't think there is any geographical grouping at all - at least not this year, because all bulgarian clubs play at least 2500 km. away

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 31-08-2005, 11:03
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 31-08-2005, 11:18

I imagine there is really a draw to determine the groups.

Wouldn't it be like this? They make 10 pots of 8 teams (1-8 in ranking, 9-16 in ranking, ... , 73-80 in ranking), and then they first draw the teams from pot 1 in the drawing groups, and then the other pots (while keeping in mind not 2 teams from the same country can be in the same drawing group).

PS: If UEFA did it this way, they didn't take CSKA Moscow as number 1 in the rankings, but as number 18 (according to their coefficient). Might this also be an indication that CSKA Moscow won't be in Pot A for the groupstage draw(???), but in Pot C (or B if 2 or more teams above them get eliminated).

Re: UEFA Cup - Round 1 - Predraw!
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-08-2005, 11:16	I've checked the groups, and indeed in all group there is one team from every of the 10 pots. But as indeed the predictions based on last years draw didn't give any result, that indicated that there probably is a real draw to determine the groups.

Author: Gauss
Date: 31-08-2005, 11:38

If UEFA did it this way, they didn't take CSKA Moscow as number 1 in the rankings, but as number 18 (according to their coefficient). Might this also be an indication that CSKA Moscow won't be in Pot A for the groupstage draw(???), but in Pot C (or B if 2 or more teams above them get eliminated).

I don't think that is possible as there is this sentence in the regulations (6.03): "If the title-holders take part, they are always the top seed." I don't see how UEFA could justify not putting CSKA Moscow in Pot A.

Re: UEFA Cup - Round 1 - Predraw!
Author: Forza-AZ Date: 31-08-2005, 15:30	Yes, that's true. But it is strange that in the predraw for the 1st round they weren't nr.1 (they are in the same drawgroup as Leverkusen, who are 3rd, and UEFA put CSKA on 3rd position in the list of seeded teams for that drawgroup).

Author: Gauss
Date: 31-08-2005, 16:16

Yes, it is strange. But the predraw is not referred to as seeding in the regulations but "the UEFA Administration may form groups, taking the economic interests of the clubs into consideration as far as possible." So the sentence concerning the top seed does not apply. Maybe economic interests are correlated with coefficient points and not with the role of the title holder? Anyway, I'm convinced that CSKA Moscow will be in Pot A if they get to the group phase.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 31-08-2005, 18:10

I am certainly interested in this attempt to understand exactly how the groups are constructed in the p[re-draw.
My sad attempt to predict this year's groups was based on only last year's data. Now we have 2 sets to examine, so we should be able to test any ideas far better and have a greater chance of understanding the process.
Certainly this year CSKA Moscow were NOT treated as top seed, as I had thought they would be, because the final group does not contain any of the top 8 seeds if the holders are taken as top seed. As has already been said, seeding them by coefficient does place a club from each notional pot in each of the 8 groups.

Author: MalcolmW
Date: 02-09-2005, 21:57

This note describes the arrangement for 2005-06.
The clubs are arranged in descending order of coefficient, and notional pots 1 to 10 comprise clubs 1-8, 9-16, ... 73-80.
The clubs in pot 1 are provisionally allocated to groups A, B, C, ..., H.
The clubs in pot 2 are provisionally allocated to groups H, G, F, ..., A.
The above procedure is repeated for pots 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and 8, and 9 and 10.
55 of the 80 teams retain their provisional group allocation.
Amendments applied to the provisional list:
In the top 8 seeds Roma (ITA) moves from group A to group F, with Monaco (FRA) moving from group F to group G and Auxerre (FRA) moving from group G to group A. I can see no reason for replacing one 'French' team with another, but understanding why this happened is a major key to the whole exercise.
In the second set of 8 seeds Besiktas (TUR) moves from group F to group G with Lokomotiv Moskva (RUS) moving from group G to group F.
No changes made to allocation of third set of 8 seeds.
In the fourth set of 8 seeds Crvena Zvezda (SCG) moves from group A to group B with Hamburger SV (GER) moving from group B to group A. This eliminates the problem of 2 German clubs allocated to group B.
In the final set of 8 seeds Bolton Wanderers (ENG) moves from group B to group H with Grasshopper Club (SUI) moving from group H to group B,
Palermo (ITA) moves from group D to group E with Steaua Bucuresti (ROU) moving from group E to group D. This eliminates the problem of 2 Roumanian clubs allocated to group E (but see below).
Racing Genk (BEL) moves from group F to group G with Brondby (DEN) moving from group G to group F.
In the top 8 non-seeds Aris Thessaloniki (GRE) moves from group A to group F with Levski Sofia (BUL) moving from group F to group A. This eliminates the problems of 2 Greek clubs allocated to group A and 2 Bulgarian clubs allocated to group F.
In the second set of 8 non-seeds Debreceni (HUN) moves from group E to group H with Halmstads (SWE) moving from group H to group E.
In the third set of 8 non-seeds there is a chain of switches. Banik Ostrava (CZE) moves from group A to group F, with Hibernian (SCO) moving from F to C, Valerenga (NOR) from C to D, Groclin Grodzisk (POL) from D to H, Xanthi (GRE) from H to E, and Dinamo Bucuresti (ROU) from E to A! This eliminates the problems of 2 Czech clubs in group A, 2 Polish clubs in group D, 2 Roumanian clubs in group E (but see above!!), and 2 Greek teams in group H.
In the fourth set of 8 non-seeds Krylya Sovetov Samara (RUS) moves from group C to group D with Rapid Bucuresti (ROU) moving from group D to group C.
In the final set of 8 nob-seeds
No changes made to allocation of final set of 8 non-seeds.