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Author: EFC
Date: 19-08-2005, 21:39
Edited by: EFC
at: 19-08-2005, 21:48

Some clubs mysteriously missing from the G14:

Benfica - most sucessful club in Portugal historically and arguably the biggest, and twice European champions.

Feyenoord - one of the Dutch big three, have been European champions.

Celtic - yes they play in what most consider to be a lesser league and do not have such a great side, but they have won an extraordinary number of domestic titles, have been European champions and have an immense fanbase - surely they have a case?

RSC Anderlecht - to have been members of the proposed G14/Media Partners European Super League in the late 90s, big name in European football, suberb domestic record, no European Cup but twice CWC winners (more than members PSG, Arsenal etc.) so why are they absent?

Chelsea - Their European record is not the best, but again is better than Arsenal's and PSG's in ternms of trophies. Surely they should now be members?

Also, I suppose Sporting Lisbon could have a case since they are one of the Portuguese big 3 and they have won as much in Europe as PSG.

Benfica and Feyenoord in particular seem to stick out as unusual abscences. Curious how they stated that a major criteria for membership was sucess in Europe yet Lyon were allowed to join despite never having won a European trophy. Surely if Lyon join, why not Chelsea (althhough I don't fancy Abramovich sat at a table dictating the future of European football)?

In truth I hate this organisation and all it stands for, but I am curious to find out all I can about them. I have read a great deal about them in recent years and some of their proposals are horrendous in my view.

Re: G14 membership
Author: Lio Date: 19-08-2005, 21:57	they are absent because these club won european trophy many years before the G14 was created or after.

Re: G14 membership
Author: Lunaris Date: 19-08-2005, 23:00	so what do the g14 stand fo actually? it would help me much if someone could tell me what their proposals actually are i just heard of the idea of a european league without relegation with all the members of the g14 (that surely is one of the most stupid proposals i've ever heard) but what else is in their mind?

Re: G14 membership
Author: WiSK23 Date: 19-08-2005, 23:50	http://www.g14.com/G14ourmission/index.asp It's basically an 'old boys' network. They protect their own interests. Membership is by invitation only, not based on who is really the best in European competition. They are only going to invite new clubs who will play by their rules, so Chelsea won't get in - for the moment at least.

Author: rbr
Date: 19-08-2005, 23:52

you also forget Rangers who currently hold the world record for domestic trophies and who along with celtic have been in discussion with the g14 for some years , also the rangers secratery Campbell Ogilvie was the person who originally thought up and brought about the concept of the champions league and also if Marseilles had not bribed their way to the final Rangers would have met ACmilan in the first c/l final

Author: EFC
Date: 20-08-2005, 00:02
Edited by: EFC
at: 20-08-2005, 00:04

I'm not sure that is correct Lio. If we were talking clubs like Nottingham Forest then of course they would not be accepted just on the strength of their past European Cup suceess because they have fallen dramatically in their domestic league and are obviously not the power their were. I don't that applies to the teams I mentioned, 10 years without a title does not really diminish Benfica's standing as such, they were always going to revive. G-14 made clear at the outset that the number of European titles won was the main criteria for eligibility to join, they say nothing about the titles having to be recent. I think the clubs I mentioned are big players and have a hostory to back it up, certainly in comparison to some of the actual members.

What does G-14 stand for? It is difficult to know because they make the odd statement every now and then and you don't know whether they still believe what they said four or five years ago. They don't all agree with each other on everything in any case, for instance most of the G14 are still asking that they all be given guarenteed entry into each season's Champions League regardless of domestic league position, but Bayern Munich are very against this and want to retain the need for everyone to qualify through their own domestic league. Over recent years they have called for the numbers of teams admitted from nations like Portugal, Netherlands, France, Germany etc. to be extended from 2 or 3 to 4 like Italy, Spain and England, at the expense of clubs from smaller nations. I read an interview with one of their representatives and he said G14 see no point to, and object to, playing teams like Slavia Prague (that is the team he used as an example) because they are not a big enough name in football. He used the example of how it is better to play a realtively minor team from Spain, he named Real Zaragoza, than it is to play a major team from Ukraine or Sweden. In short, they do not like playing anybody from outside Europe's more prestigous leagues. They object to their league's clubs having to play pre-qualifying rounds, saying all big-name teams should not have to, as it is a waste of the two match dates in August which could instead be used for money-spinning fixtures in the CL itself. They propose removing the smallest nations from the CL qualifying rounds entirely, leaving the CL entirely for big clubs from major leagues along with the biggest clubs from selected middle-ranking leagues, such as the likes of maybe Celtic, Rangers, Anderlecht, etc. They were horrified by the removal of the Second Group Phase. They in fact wanted to extend the CL to have groups of 6 instead of groups of 4. Despite the fact that they were responsible for the end of the CWC, they now say they are unhappy about there being no third competition anymore. So they wish to introduce a new third competition. In the UEFA Cup, they would again reserve this for clubs from the bigger and middle-ranking nations, for those clubs who do not reach the CL (or don't get an automatic place like them). Then the new third tournament would feature all the small nations champions and cup winners along with minor teams from the bigger nations. They object strongly to UEFA's 'solidarity' policy, where they give some CL profits to the FA's of minor nations to help them develop their grassroots football. They think this money is rightfully theirs. Just to prove they are not so greedy, they say they think the smaller FA's should get some money, but basically it should be a lot less and they should decide how much is given to who, not UEFA. Considering they were furious about the meagre 196,000 Euros given to the Andorran FA a few years back it's not clear how much money they would actually be prepared to give away. On top of that, they want national FAs to pay their player's wages when they take them on international duty.

As I said above though, by no means do all the G14 clubs hold all these views. These are just positions espoused by representatives of the G14 clubs in recent years, some of the members do not approve all these ideas.

Author: EFC
Date: 20-08-2005, 00:13

I did think of Rangers and I know they have been attempting to join G14 along with Celtic. I didn't put them down because of their lack of a European Cup, so I suppose Celtic come across as the more obvious candidate. However, Rangers have a very good case, they also have won the same in Europe as PSG and more than Lyon, and nobody can question the size of the club.

I remember well Rangers in the CL in 92/93, they were very unlucky, but be careful what you say about Marseille! I could be wrong, but I don't think they were accused of bribery in the CL, only in the French league.

Re: G14 membership
Author: kurt Date: 20-08-2005, 10:39	if one candidate must be in G14 then it must be anderlecht, anderlecht is in europe more then 40 years in a row, even real madrid can not say that , only 2or 3 clubs in europe can say that i think barcelona

Author: anita
Date: 20-08-2005, 10:48

EFC, I have been into this before on Forum, but since you mentioned Bayern Munich, I remember that arrogant prick Franz Beckenbauer, that in 1997 argued that in ECQ and WCQ the lower-ranked countries in Europe should play a separate qualification first before meeting the top-ranked countries, because it was a waste of resources for top ranked countries to spend time on games they were bound to win anyway.

Weeks later Germany was in deep shit in Granada vs. Albania in ECQ. Germany won 3-2, and at home in Hannover later that year in even deeper shit when they won 4-3.

Three years later Beckenbauer argued against smaller teams in CL. He mentioned Rosenborg as an example. Again, weeks later Rosenborg thrashed/trashed Dortmund 3-0 in Dortmund (and won their CL-group).

Beckenbauers timing was not absolutely perfect. Worse is that he comes from a district/country that still should be very careful when talking about superior and inferior countries.

Author: Lio
Date: 20-08-2005, 11:22

a definiv point about marseille.They have been judged ONLY about the french championship and it has been prouved.
I were surprised european team in CL would have accepted money in order to make wrong a result.
(and if if has been the case it could be done that TWO clubs have bribed).

Concernly the g14, this statement is just a "club" where their members do propositions and gives themselves idea about the gestion of football club,about national selections...

The clubs you have mentionned before (anderlecht...)were big clubs when the old system cup was used.Not in actualy system.

So we came back to best system of diferents european cup again.

Author: EFC
Date: 21-08-2005, 05:29

Anita, I have heard many of Beckenbauer's silly statements. The best was last year some time when he said if the German FA did not change the TV deal, Bayern would leave the Bundesliga and play in the Italian Serie A instead! As if UEFA or FIFA would allow that (or Bayern's own fans for that matter). Beckenbauer deserves repsect as a fantastic footballer but he indeed very arrogant. His statement about Rosenborg is typical, as I remember Rosenborg put AC Milan out of the CL a few years before and were only narrowly beaten by Juventus in the last eight, so how he imagined they were not worthy of playing in the tournament I am not sure. But as I say, Bayern - I don't know about Beckenbauer himself - have expressed some more sensible views than other G14 clubs, particularly with regard to calling for the need for every club to have qualify for Europe to be retained, although they may hold more similar views to the other G14 clubs on other issues, I'm not sure.

Lio, I honestly don't think when the teams won their trophies or under what system or format was the criteria suggested for teams joining the G-14. I am only going off what G14 themselves said at the time. Many of the clubs involved when the G14 was formed had not won European trophies for a long time and only only under the old system. Anderlecht in fact were invited to join the elite Super League the G14 were planning, I think there were 18 teams to join, 14 of them the G14 with four others, with Arsenal and Benfica amongst them, yet they (or Benfica) were not allowed to join G14 when they later allowed other clubs to join it. With regard to Marseille, I don't think they bribed anyone in Europe but they did have some strange dealings. They bought Trevor Steven from Rangers in 1991 for a British record �5.5 million but then they lost in the Second Round of the European Cup to Sparta Prague, so they did not qualify for the Champions Cup group phase (wasn't called Champions League until the following year). So they just informed Rangers they could not now afford to pay the transfer fee! They had simply assumed that they would easily reach the Champions Cup Group Phase and had budgeted entirely for that. Steven was astonished, he was sent back to Glasgow to play for Rangers again within a few months because Marseille decided they simply could not afford they player after they had completed the transfer and he had played half a season for them. Hardly a professional way to run a football club.

Re: G14 membership
Author: Lio Date: 21-08-2005, 16:53 Edited by: Lio at: 21-08-2005, 16:55	it's not the practise that many club use? (while how many times leeds makes wrong european cup because they havent got enough money and anticipated for next tv right,as same as lazio and as roma who paid later). See celtic situation now they will surely sell players.