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Author: ignjat63
Date: 24-01-2005, 14:42
| On friday 21 Jan a Serbian daily paper called "Politika" (very serious no-nonsense paper) published an article on its sports pages called "Goal difference more important than head-to-head matches". The article claims that FIFA decided on 18 of dec. to change order of deciders for group qualifications for WC2006 in Germany. The decision was made public in Zurich on 19th of Jan. New order of deciders is: number of points, goal difference, more goals scored, head-to-head and finaly draw if everything else is the same. The article goes on to analyze new situation in Serbian group.
Has any of you heard anything remotely similar to this? Is it news only to me? I need some confirmation. |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 24-01-2005, 15:40
| I haven't heared from it. I would find it very strange that mid-competition this would change. e.g one team has had the 'easy' opponent already, where just winning was enough, while another now knows goaldifference makes a difference.. |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 24-01-2005, 15:47
| Exactly, Ricardo. Precisely Serbian situation. We won two matches against San Marino but Spain has to play against them twice. the journalist who wrote the article left no doubt that change is for the current qualification. I only wonder if he got it wrong. The change could be for WC2010. That's why I wanted confirmation. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 24-01-2005, 17:08
| I can't imagine that they would change it when the competition is already underway.
Maybe they will change it for the groupstage in the final tournament(??). |
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Author: Gauss
Date: 25-01-2005, 10:13
| I can't imagine that deciders should be changed for the final tournament, either. The regulations for both qualification and final tournament are published by FIFA (http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/releases/en/fwc_regulations_2006_090604_en.pdf) and those regulations contain the same ranking of criteria as used in recent competitions:
(a) greater number of points obtained in all the group matches;
If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above criterion, their ranking shall be determined as follows:
(b) greater number of points obtained in the group matches between the teams concerned;
(c) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the teams concerned;
(d) greater number of goals scored in the group matches between the teams concerned;
(e) goal difference in all the group matches;
(f) greater number of goals scored in all the group matches;
(g) drawing lots by the Organising Committee for the FIFA World Cup(TM).
And there doesn't seem to be any trace of a change of these rules on the FIFA website. |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 25-01-2005, 14:22
| I could not find any confirmation anywhere too. So it seems to be a mistake made by the journalist (and his editor too). Though I am very surprised indeed considering reputation of the newspaper. |
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Author: MichaelCollins
Date: 25-01-2005, 16:43
| I thought goal difference counts first over head to head anyway.
If it doesnt, one question.
See when Portugal played Russia recently and won 7-1, the football informers (ie, the net, Eurosport, etc) claimed Portugal and Slovakia were tied on 10 points I beleive, but Portugal were top on GOAL DIFFERENCE. Does that mean it has been goal difference for the entire tournament so far but no one has noticed? |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-01-2005, 16:55
| Portugal and Slovakia haven't played each other yet, so there is no head-to-head so far. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 25-01-2005, 17:00
| PS: In the last World Cup campaign (for 2002) indeed goal-difference was first. But in the qualifying for Euro 2000 and Euro 2004 head-to-head was first.
But in the regulations it's clear now that for WC 2006 head-to-head is first. However there is still a difference with Euro qualifying, as away goals don't count for WC 2006.
So for example:
team A-team B 2-1
team B-team A 1-0
team A has the better goal difference.
In Euro team B would be first (on away goal in head-to-head), but in WC team A is first (on overal goaldifference). |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 25-01-2005, 17:20
| You can study regulations at ease at the following FIFA site
http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/releases/en/fwc_regulations_2006_090604_en.pdf
There it states for the preliminary part (meaning qualifications):
In the league system the ranking in each group is determined as follows:
(a) greater number of points obtained in all the group matches;
If two or more teams are equal on the basis of the above criterion, their ranking shall be determined as follows:
(b) greater number of points obtained in the group matches between the teams concerned;
(c) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the teams concerned;
(d) greater number of goals scored in the group matches between the teams concerned;
(e) goal difference in all the group matches;
(f) greater number of goals scored in all the group matches;
(g) a play-off on neutral ground.
The article I mentioned clearly states that at 18 of dec 2004 meeting was held between members of Organization comittee of the 2006 WC and Executive comittee of FIFA. Does anyone know what has been decided there? I can not find a trace of that supposed meeting. |
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Author: Gauss
Date: 25-01-2005, 18:04
| I guess they decided this: http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/releases/en/nl_12222004_en.pdf |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 26-01-2005, 11:10
| I can't find anything about regulations there. On which page of the PDF is it? |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 26-01-2005, 14:24
| Yesterday evening I sent an e-mail to the paper's sports department and got the answer from the journalist himself. Here is what he said roughly translated.
"I got the information in Serbian and Montenegro Football Association. It is a unilateral letter that FIFA officials sent to all National FA's in the world. For additional information I contacted FIFA media service. I suppose this information will soon be published on FIFA's official site in pdf format." |
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Author: isidromv
Date: 09-02-2005, 10:07
| This evening Spain is playing San Marino.
I've read two articles saying that it is crucial for Spain to get as much goals as possible. One article was on Marca (Spanish newspaper), and the other one was on FIFA's web .
It is not a confirmation that the rules have changed, but take your own conclusions. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 09-02-2005, 12:11
| That doesn't prove anything. Goal difference can also be desicive at the "old" rules, when head-to-head is equal. So that's why winning with a great margin is always important. |
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Author: bobbykav
Date: 10-02-2005, 21:41
| I say goal difference should always come before the head to head games. |
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Author: iwan
Date: 10-02-2005, 21:59
Edited by: iwan
at: 10-02-2005, 22:37 | Yes, goal-differences is a better solution than head to head.
There are roomers, at the last ECS Danmark and Sweden played a
set-up- 2-2-draw to eliminate Italy, when goal-difference had more priority than head-to-head that never could have been happening!! |
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Author: Lunaris
Date: 10-02-2005, 22:22
| well i prefer head-to-head over goal-difference, as it's just between the teams in question
when it comes down to one team or another, than the better of the two should go and what better would there be for decision than head-to-head? |
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Author: iwan
Date: 10-02-2005, 22:49
| When head-to-head has an higher priority than the goal-differences
than there more possiblities for set-up-draws in the last poulematch
like possible Sweden and Danmark did at the last ECS.
In '82 when Germeny would win with one goal difference against Austria both team should going in to the 2nd round, in all the other cases, one of both and Algaria should going farther. But after 5 minutes Germany made 1-0, and the rest of the match, nobody serieus did make an serieusly attack, a set-up-match ore 'schebung'.
After that tournement allways in the last round all the matches have been played at the same time.
Two years later, there ware poules of 5 and Holland was free the last day and Spain won with 13-1 against Malta to eliminate Holland, after that the lowest ranked team is free in the last round with uneven members in a poule.
Between 1986 and 2002 at the ECS's end WCS's never there are played schebungs like Germany and Austria did in '82!!! But the last time
between Sweden and Danmark, there are many doubts about it!!
Good, it's allways possible after 2 matches 2 countries has each 4 points and meet each-other in the last round and 2 other countries with each one point, than the strongest 2 teams can play a set-up-draw
But I doubt there's an exemple of that!??!?
In 2000, Holland and France had each 6 points in 2 matches and Danmark and Rumania each zero. The matches in the last day never matters!!
To eliminate that possiblities it's possible to let play in the 2nd
poulematch the winners against each-other and the loosers too, in the 3rd poulematch meet the teams who didn't meet each-other earlier each-other. |
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Author: anita
Date: 11-02-2005, 11:27
| What is the difference between criterias c) and d)?
(c) goal difference resulting from the group matches between the teams concerned;
(d) greater number of goals scored in the group matches between the teams concerned;
Forza writes that:
So for example:
team A-team B 2-1
team B-team A 1-0
team A has the better goal difference.
The goal difference is 2-2, so does criteria d) mean that the team scoring most goals in one of the matches will go through if criteria c) is even? I.e. team A scoring 2 goals in one match, while team B scoring one in each match, team A is better? |
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Author: bert.kassies
Date: 11-02-2005, 11:57
| anita, I cannot grasp Forza's contribution. But I'm sure he will speak for himself.
The difference between criterias c) and d) can only be significant if more than 2 teams are concerned. Suppose 3 teams A, B, and C, equal on points, with the following total score (no need to distinguish between home and away, here):team A - team B: 1-1
team B - team C: 2-2
team C - team A: 3-3 So equal with respect to criterium c), but team C wins on criterium d). |
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Author: Michele
Date: 11-02-2005, 12:28
| And we saw an example of just that during EC'04 in the famous group with Denmark, Sweden and Italy.
Denmark - Italy 0-0
Italy - Sweden 1-1
Sweden - Denmark 2-2
and all teams beat Bulgaria. I think everybody knows that Sweden won the group ahead of Denmark with Italy in 3rd.
Mikael |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-02-2005, 13:45
Edited by: Forza-AZ
at: 11-02-2005, 14:13 | Forza writes that:
So for example:
team A-team B 2-1
team B-team A 1-0
team A has the better goal difference.
The goal difference is 2-2, so does criteria d) mean that the team scoring most goals in one of the matches will go through if criteria c) is even? I.e. team A scoring 2 goals in one match, while team B scoring one in each match, team A is better?
c) and d) are not the same, but in case of 2 teams when c) is the same (has to be 0 then), then also d) is the same. With more teams it can be different.
In the case above c) is 0 for both and d) is 2. So then the total goal difference over all matches will count. |
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Author: anita
Date: 11-02-2005, 14:59
| Thx guys. Of course. Happened to Norway in WC-94 as well. Another thing to get it absolutely straight; so head-to-head is not valid in WC-06-qualification? I thought that Denmarks goal in Greece may have been important if they won 1-0 at home in this close group. But obviously not so. |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 11-02-2005, 15:44
| Since I was the one to start this topic asking for anybody's confirmation of the afore mentioned article, a few comments.
I have not gotten any confirmation from anyone but the journalist himself who said (I'll be repeating myself a bit) that he saw the letter by FIFA to the Serbian And Montenegro Football Association about the change of the rules and also contacted FIFA Media Service where he got the confirmation of the rules change.
I tried contacting Serbian And Montenegro Football Association but so far in vain (they are always on meetings or somewhere else).
Perhaps some of you guys can contact FAs of your own country and see what they say. Won't hurt to try, anyway.
So, Anita, still great clouds of doubt over my mind. Either the journalist has been lying to me (absolutely no reason for that) or perhaps he misunderstood the information (could be) or he was right but FIFA is silent about it (and almost all Europe's media too).I do not like any of these possibilities.Worst of all would be change of rules in the midcompetition. That possibility keeps me stubborn about the subject. |
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Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 11-02-2005, 18:05
| Thx guys. Of course. Happened to Norway in WC-94 as well. Another thing to get it absolutely straight; so head-to-head is not valid in WC-06-qualification? I thought that Denmarks goal in Greece may have been important if they won 1-0 at home in this close group. But obviously not so.
Head-to-head does count, only not away goals, so in the Denmark-Greece case the teams have equal head-to-head if Denmark win at home with 1-0, 2-1, 3-2, 4-3 etc. So total goal difference will count then.
But when for instance Denmark wins 2-0 at home to Greece and both teams have the same amount of points, then even if Greece have the better overal goaldifference, Denmark will still be above Greece (except when a 3rd team has the same amount of points off course, then also the matches with that team count in head-to-head). |
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Author: Sami.Jukkasjarvi
Date: 14-02-2005, 00:54
Edited by: Sami.Jukkasjarvi
at: 14-02-2005, 00:55 | I also don't think they'll change head-to-head to goal difference in the middle of the tournament but I feel goal difference is a better deal (for the same reasons as above).
I would also suggest:
1) having more teams in each groups in Euro and World Cup qualifying games, e.g. 5 groups with 10 teams in each group. Top 3 teams in each group qualify, or top 2 qualify and 3rd and 4th placed teams make the play-off pairs. That way each team will play at least 18 games in qualifying campaign which is more reasonable given how important national sides are. And the hosts should be going through qualification just as everyone else!
2) I don't understand why they want to finish all qualifiers in October-November, seven months prior to the tournament. Why not finish it late in April, few weeks before the Euro or WC? That way teams that do not qualify do not have to wait almost a year without any serious games, and more matches can be accomodated!
3) It's been a while now that 3 pts are given for a win. I feel the rules should be as simple as possible, 2 pts for a win is a better choice! For example, if 2 pts were given for a win, Inter would now be battling for a scudetto! And they deserved that-they have not lost a single game in the tournament. |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 14-02-2005, 10:10
Edited by: ignjat63
at: 14-02-2005, 12:07 | Main reason I have put this topic is possibility of FIFA changing rules in mid-competition. I've been stubborn more than ever to get at least some confirmation that the rules have been changed.
The first confirmation (as I already said) I got from the journalist who wrote the most interesting article. I tried many times to get (on the phone) Serbian and Montenegrean Football Association and I finally did. They too confirmed that they got the letter from FIFA and that it is true - the rules have indeed been changed.
So if it is true why has FIFA been silent about it? I suppose because they are very much aware that changing the rules in mid-competition is very much against spirit of sport (if there is any spirit left at all). It would have been very unpopular if they said it openly. So it is understandable.
But what about Europe's (world's) sports media? I thought they would jump at the chance of news like this. There is something I really do not understand about it all.
So the new criteria are:
1) Total number of points.
2) Goal difference in whole group.
3) More goals scored in wfole group.
4) Head to head,
5) draw |
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Author: ralfinho
Date: 16-02-2005, 00:08
| Refering to the media, I just wrote an email to the "Kicker" asking if they know something about the issue. Maybe they will call the DFB.
Wait and see. |
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