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Author: manaus
Date: 23-12-2004, 19:31

Looking back the arbitrage at the match Dinamo Zagreb- Heerneven, especially the penalty of the Austrian referee in last minutes that did not existed, brings some doubts in regularity and sense of the group phase of the UEFA. On this way, Dutch team passes to the next phase, but we can say that Utrecht and AZ were more that grateful to Austrian teams, both goals were scored almost at similar moments, with monitoring to results of other clubs in the groups…
Also, don’t want to mention the elimination of Russian Zenith by Allemania…The Greek AEK was completely out of motivation, it was visible on the screen…
Some other results where also “unpredictable”…
No need to mention that before the group stage there is no chance to mean any Scandinavian club with the clubs from central or south Europe – some different football philosophies and qualities are not going to meet in amount as before…For example, Norwegian teams got a lot of coefficients point with Estonia, Island…but I am not sure if they played the same with Romanian and Bulgarian clubs… Or other similar examples.

Author: Gabi
Date: 24-12-2004, 09:59

i'll tell u something. in the qualifications for the uefa euro 2004, romania didn't play in the last matchday so they played their qualification in the matchday before the last against denmark. if romania wins they would have had 2nd place asuired but also big chances to win the group. at half time denmark had 1-0 goal scored from a penalty.(!!!)in the second half romania turned the score for 2-1 for it. there where 4 (!!) minutes of extra time and denmark scored the equalizer in the 5th minute (!!!!

() 2-2 and romania should hope that luxemburg draw with norway. hopeless and romania don't qualify. the match against denmark was played in denmark!!!. the referee was URS MAIER who had also destroied england at euro 2004 making portugal qualify. i am so glad he retired. i don't know if he'll get out of romania alive if he will ever come here.
the point is that romanian teams have been 'worked' for a long time by uefa (Lenny especially) maybe because romanian FA president didn't vote for him at fifa elections!! who knows....

Author: TheGame
Date: 24-12-2004, 11:22

I have to say that the penalty for Denmark was the only big and decisive mistake by the referee (Urs Meier) in both matches (Denmark-Romania, Portugal-England). The fifth minute in injury time was due to time wasting by Romania and even Cristian Chivu admitted, later in the newspapers, that the Romanian team has only itself to blame for this.

And the goal for England was not correct, everybody who knows the rules can second that.

If you want to know more about it: http://www.wisa.org.uk/chat/nonmembers/index.cgi?do=showmsg&conf=Dons_.News_&msg=6617&show=unread&depth=all

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: Wilberto Date: 24-12-2004, 12:26	Remember Spain-Malta 12-1 in 1983. Spain needing a difference of exactly 11 goals to qualify for WC, a national trauma for the Netherlands. The score after 45 minutes was 3-1!!!!!

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: anita Date: 24-12-2004, 14:17	Like TheGame writes, some selective memory by Gabi here. Don't forget that Romania lost 0-1 at home to Norway and 2-5(!) to Denmark, without any 'help' from the referee. Like Chivu and other Romanian players stated; their own fault that they didn't pick up enough points. Or in other words, not good enough.

Author: Gabi
Date: 24-12-2004, 18:21

i'm sorry anita but the match romania - norway 0-1 at 0-0 norway caused a CLEAR hands in the box but the referee didn't give a penalty to romania and in the second leg, norway - romania 1-1 norway's goal was scored from a penalty given for an INEXISTENT hands at Cristi Chivu. The hands was actualy comited by Carew. the 2-5 defeat against denmark i agree they were better (though denmark's 2-2 goal was scored with great luck from the midfield by Gravesen). anyway, the home matches against denmark was played on sand and against norway on mud, but i agree that both teams played on the same pitch. denmark's 2-5 win was correct, but romania should have beaten norway at least once. but that's life.

Author: SHEV
Date: 24-12-2004, 19:49

If we talking about referees. There is 3 of them n Ukrainians black list:

1. Rune Pedersen - norwegian scum who killed Ukrainians hopes in play-offs for WC-98. Cancelled 100% fair goal that could make Ukraine go to the finals. Most disliked referee.

2. Dauden Ibanez - spanish bastard who destroyed all for Dynamo last year in match against Locomotiv. Gave a penalty that even Loco player said it wasn't and didn't cancelled goal that was scored in last minute when Loco striker pushed our goalkeeper.

3. Mika Vuorella - "finnish killer" who gave most LOL penalty I ever saw in last minute in a match Armenia-Ukraine, that made a score 2-2.

F*ck'em

Author: anita
Date: 25-12-2004, 14:38

Well, SHEV, I don't defend Rune Pedersen, but at least he sent the German Woerns off vs. Croatia in France-98, making it easier for the Croats to beat Germany in QF, so he can't be all that bad....

And gabi, agree with you that Romania had very little going smoothly for them in that qualification. Margins, referees, injury time goals "against" them. And some lousy play. As you write, shit happens!

One may think that good and bad luck would balance over years, but drawing with Holland and Chechs in same group to WC-06, was not hilariously funny for Romania either

Author: AlanK
Date: 25-12-2004, 15:37

I guess this is what baseball calls the hot stove league. I must say that I hate conspiracy theories. Everybody dredges up all the injustices that have ever happened involving favorite teams. My #1 is Spain vs South Korea at the last Mundial--we wuz robbed! But incredibly enough, I realize that the hardest job in soccer is that of the arbitro--every now and then, on of these "obvious" penalties or handballs is actually missed! Anybody want to comment on Maradona's "mano de Dios"? But please, when they get it right, give credit. Urs Meier got it right in Portugal vs England. I was at the game, looking right at the non-goal by Sol Campbell. The foul by Terry on Ricardo was, as the Spaniards say, "as big as a cathedral." The comment about anyone who knows the rules realizes that Meier was correct is cogent--as Meier himself said, "Maybe you can get away with that in the Premiership, but here we play by UEFA rules." There was an excellent photo of the foul in the Portuguese press--Terry had an arm over Ricardo's arm so that the goalie couldn't jump. Campbell would never have gotten to the ball without this "aid." I never did see this photo in any of the English magazines . . .

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: janss Date: 25-12-2004, 16:11	I completely agree with you, AlanK. We can't always blaim the refs. The example of Wilberto is unbelievable. It was a big disaster for The Netherlands...

Author: anita
Date: 25-12-2004, 17:08

I think another Maier, Sepp, said it wisely in WC-02: "If the ref disallows a goal, just score one more". Same goes for all errors by referees. OK, it wasn't offside, OK, it was a penalty. So what? Play on, guys (and women...)

And if you are really sore and grumpy, you may argue that the opponent should not have had that goal, because "we" should have had a free-kick in the situation before that. Or 5 minutes before that. Or....You end up in chaos theory with butterflies in Japan affecting the stock market on Wall Street.

I think such whining reflects an immature (or very conspirative) view on football and referees. You have examples where the referees have been obviously biased (bribed?), but ONE situation (or maybe one-and-a-half)in a match that endures for 90+ minutes, please!

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: SHEV Date: 25-12-2004, 20:26	Anita said: Well, SHEV, I don't defend Rune Pedersen, but at least he sent the German Woerns off vs. Croatia in France-98, making it easier for the Croats to beat Germany in QF, so he can't be all that bad.... ------------------------------------------------------ Guess whom we played in play-off? You'll never guess.................Croatia! Coincidence or else?

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: Dneprchemp Date: 25-12-2004, 20:52	There are very often judge destoies all hopes of West and North European coutries! In 1/4 matches of the matches in which played ukrainian clubs judge helped not ukrainian teams!

Author: anita
Date: 26-12-2004, 13:30

Hmmm,SHEV, maybe you have a conspiracy theory with some concistency going here

I have always felt that 'little'Norway and Nor teams have been treated unfair by referees in international matches vs the big ones. From 10 years ago both Norway and Rosenborg have grown to be respected teams in Europe, so I don't have that irritation anymore.

But that's not the (only) explanation. International referees have become much better later years. That's a general impression, I think. And there's no reason why referees should 'prefer' Western teams to Eastern. Some inferiority complex and paranoia from some Easterners.

Author: SHEV
Date: 27-12-2004, 02:26

Anita said:

And there's no reason why referees should 'prefer' Western teams to Eastern. Some inferiority complex and paranoia from some Easterners.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
No reason? What about money that UEFA maybe wants to stay in Western Europe. Wining a WC or EC play-off? for example, gives not only the right to participate on major football forum, it's also gives a lot of money.

Maybe it's just about hating some stupid poor easterns. Unlikely, but it was some examples like Sweden referee Argentina-USSR match in 1986. He was standing a meter from a place where Maradonna catched the ball with his hand before scoring. I was shocked, f*cking meter and he saw everything. Later he admit that he hated communists.

Neither Dynamo Kiev, nor Ukraine was given a single penalty in this millennium. More then 4 years past since we had a penalty to Slovenians. It was last time. Can you imagine 4 years? Meanwhile was penalised not less then 10 times. Of course it could be just coincidence

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: Lunaris Date: 27-12-2004, 11:43	to say that an austrian referee helped heerenveen win, cause AZ and utrecht can let austrian teams trough is really harsh...hey people we don't live in colombia, georgia or else, we live in europe. blame your teams for falling but not any referee or other teams

Author: anita
Date: 27-12-2004, 12:13

SHEV, those who have lived under a dictatorship (or what you may call it) have a tendency to be paranoic and make up conspiracy theories and crisis scenarios.

I hardly think that UEFA/FIFA have urged their international referees to treat the poorer and smaller nations unfair. And that a Swede (Erik Fredriksson) referee should dislike communism and thereby rule against USSR on the turf, hmmmm? From where do you have THAT information? Pravda? What communism have with USSR to do, is probably another topic and Forum...

But admit that the whole world saw the hands exzcept the referee. Btw, 1990, I think.

In 1986 the brilliant Soviet team were eliminated in 1/8-finals by Belgium because of a totally incompetent linesman. I think he was American....

But now the money is rolling in in Ukraine and Russian clubs, so we may look forward to some more penalties for DKiev and Shaktor

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: SHEV Date: 27-12-2004, 22:13	Anita said: But now the money is rolling in in Ukraine and Russian clubs, so we may look forward to some more penalties for DKiev and Shaktor -------------------------------------------------------------------- Hope it'll be at least one in that century

Author: SHEV
Date: 27-12-2004, 22:28

Statistic for this year:

1.Shakhtar received 4 red cards and 2 penalties in their goal(plus one free kick inside penalty area). Against 0 red cards and 0 penalties.

2.Dynamo better getting only 1 penalty in their goal and 1 red cards received(40 minutes of disadvantage). Against 0 penalties and 2 red cards(but it was only 10 minutes of advantage so doesn't counts. For example Shakhtar played 100 minutes with ten man and 30 with nine)

Quite impresive statistic for country that known for fair-play.

Last year it was the same. And year before. Have you watched PSG-CSKA? When in crucial moment CSKA was shown a red card? Or CSKA-Rangers when Rae kicked opponents head and was forgiven?

It's nothing to talk about

Even draws that I belive are fair showing strange results

Can't understand it, but why Dnipro and Zenith wasn't playing on 5-th matchday. Remember Zenith is out because of this. Why Ukraine misses last matchday second time in a row?

Of course it's stupid to blame draws but it's 875 to 1 chance it'll happen. Quite enormous coincidence, isn't it?

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: SHEV Date: 27-12-2004, 22:31	It's a pity that our clubs wining not "because of something", but "regardless of everything".

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: SHEV Date: 27-12-2004, 22:34	It's better to say: Not, "thanks to something", but "regardless of everything"

Author: Lunaris
Date: 27-12-2004, 22:36

zenit was not kicked out of uefa-cup cause they were not playing on matchday 5, they didn't make enough points the 4 rounds before, that's why they are out
i wonder why you're always whining and seeing mistreatment on all the eastern clubs, i really like clubs from russia and ukraine and i dislike it too that many of them fell before the winterbreak, but please stop yelling at the referees, that won't help

Author: Osirius
Date: 28-12-2004, 06:26

Don't want to argue about referees,but some true presents here.PSG-SCKA red card in the beginning of 2nd half(2 yellows - 1st for nothing,defender even didn't touch the player,second one can be hardly called a handball cause the ball more likely found the hand).Last year Monaco - Loko:penalty,rad card (first yellow was for talks) and the only WINNING goal which was even admitted on special comission with referees that was wrong.So there is logic in SHEV's words.But anyway will be the BEST

Re: Coincidence or else?
Author: Gabi Date: 28-12-2004, 09:30	oh.. and guess what (anita) romania lost against the czechs 1-0 from a penalty

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 02-01-2005, 11:37

Of course money has everything to do with it. Why did they let more teams from one country in UCL? Why were they fussing about Latvia going to EURO'04? Did the stadium sell out when Latvia played? Did many tourists come from Latvia to Portugal to spend their money in the host nation? Is Latvian TV market all that lucrative? Sorry for picking on Latvia. I am proud of them though! Same goes for Bulgaria. Anyone up for a final Bulgaria - Brasil at WC'94? The Americans don't even know where that is..... Did the whole world see Costacurta's volleyball skills in his own penalty area? Sure did. Did the referee see it (Kineu (my french spelling isn't that great) - long live his mother!) probably not, he was trotting way back at the half field. But I am sure that the AR saw it. Did they give a second penalty for Bulgaria? Who was the team that eliminated France in qualification the previous year in a heartbreaking literally last second effort? The end of a legendary team - Papin, Cantona and the rest. Was all that a coincidence? Probably not. But of course if you try much harder, you might eventually beat the odds, but it's like running uphill while your opponent is runs on a flat course or playing basketball with one hand against your opponent.
I remember last year at the EURO I really thought that the Bulgarian Mafia should have killed that Portuguese man who refereed the game vs Denmark:
It is 1:0 for tha Danes, Zdravko Lazarov breaks through and is chopped down by a Dane. It is a clear goalscoring opportunity as he has only the keeper to beat. Clear red card IMHO. Play on says the ref, next thing you know the ball is in our half Hristov makes a tackle and the ref blows the whistle. Stilian Petrov as the team captain protest the previous situation and gets a second yellow and a red. Game over. Euro campaign over....
All that said, don't blame it all on the ref. He is a human too. And if he makes a mistake, just suck it up, nothing will change. I am a referee and I can put myself in that spot and try to justify their decisions. The referee is a part of the game. It is the most unthankful job. Everyone uses you for your defeat. Sometimes you even get beat up. Ask Anders Frisk. People with tremendous self-admiration and self-confidence become referees. As for me I did it for the love of the game. And I can asure you that I'll never make a "mistake" purpously and will never be biased. If someone from up above applies presure on me I will not be a ref anymore.