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Author: wojtek
Date: 06-12-2004, 21:10

Which club will join top clubs in Europe. Shahtar Donieck (if Ukraine is still Ukraine and one)? Wisla Krakow? Az Alkmaar? Or maybe Aberdeen? Alright I am polish and scottish football expert so on you go with new examples.
Shahtar is already great team due to money. If the money stay there so will the success.
Wisla Krakow is just not lucky. They have great potential and I dont believe anybody would wish its team to come across The Poles. Unless they are Real Madrid, of course.
AZ Alkmaar. I saw their goal against Rangers and its enough. They have skills, stamina and faith. They can beat big teams.
Aberdeen have been picked up to dethrone at least one of OLD Firm clubs from first two places. They will not do that this season. But if they manage it next one we will have very, very strong scottish represent in cups and they will definitely make big progress as country. Hearts is another candidate to upset Scottish football.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: quizzle2000 Date: 06-12-2004, 21:19	I think you forget Dnjepropetrovsk. They surprised me against Utrecht (I saw the match). And maybe you should also add Heerenveen, They have the potency to win against big teams, alltough they were very lucky last week against Zagreb.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: alexx Date: 06-12-2004, 22:43	PARTIZAN Belgrade is making ramarkable progress in the past two years and will, I hope, continue to do so in the future.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: quizzle2000 Date: 06-12-2004, 22:53	Let's hope one of these clubs or some other smaller clubs (like PSV, Olympiakos or PSG in the CL) will reach the final (CL or UC)!!

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: guitou_sid Date: 06-12-2004, 22:58	it's my hope too!! it's already the same club (spanish or italian clubs) which win every year ... STop i dont like porto, but it was a great thing: IT 's not ONLY the money (and the biggest debt) which help to win Champions league! Thks monaco and porto!

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: SHEV Date: 06-12-2004, 23:30	Never wanted small clubs to take part in Eurocups finals. It decreases value of that trophies. For instance if Dynamo wil win CL this year it will not be so great as it could be last year, cause now you can say: "Whatever, even Porto won it. No big deal." Now CL need about 10 top team winners to bring value of CL back like it was after Red Star.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: fenerli Date: 07-12-2004, 08:48	My favour team Fenerbahce SK will join...they are now the club with the best structure...most supporters...and they increased their merchendaising profit...i think they will have a very big financial power in the next few years...and also they have a very young talented team...they are still leading in the turkish superleauge...and playing in the next round of the uefa cup.

Author: rod_c
Date: 07-12-2004, 10:26

Re Scotland - I think Hearts are best placed to try & split the big 2 (and, with a couple of years of improving UEFA experience - do more in Europe) - but it's a challenge for them. Aberdeen have improved, but they don't have a large support compared to Hearts so have worse financial restrictions. Hibernean are another team that are looking good - but it's keepiing the imrovement going that'll be the challenge.

I actually think the SPL is better this year than the last 5 or 6. But whether that's down to Celtic taking a couple of steps back this season, & Rangers doing the same in the previous season, or down to the other teams improving? Too close to call.

Author: anita
Date: 07-12-2004, 12:31

rod, your last comment goes for Norway as well. Rosenborg had to fight to the end to win NOR PL this season. Can we assume that the other teams have improved, or is it just Rosenborg taking a couple of steps back? Hearts' campaign in Europe this year is hardly not THAT convincing.

When it comes to future top teams, we will hardly spot them by looking at this years UC/CL. Alkmaar have impressed in UC and domestic league, but hardly have the resources to establish themselves on high level in Europe. Fenerbahce, Aberdeen, Hearts, Dnipro, PBeograd have to show something steady first, and I can't see any of those teams in the European top. All teams with medium/strong performances this season, but......

SHEV, one question to you. How many Ukraines are playing for Shaktor? I can't seem to find a proper link ("Cyrillic" is not my mothers tongue....)

Author: jonjon
Date: 07-12-2004, 13:03

Rod_c:
I am kinda fed up with Hearts being the so called 'third force in Scottish football'. They dont actually have any bigger support than Aberdeen, this season their average is 400 less and over the last few years both have been much of a likeness. I find for a city of Edinburgh's size the local support is very disappointing. It will be a few years before any team outside the old firm will separate them, and for an up and coming team, Hibs are now looking the most impressive team outside the Old Firm this year- very impressive against Celtic on Staurday, even more so than Aberdeen who actually won.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: ignjat63 Date: 07-12-2004, 14:35	No club from Scandinavia, East Europe, Central Europe or Balcans will EVER join the top European clubs, and clubs from Portugal, Holland, Belgium or Scotland will never do it for more than a surprisingly successful season. Top clubs in Europe are from big 3 (Spain, England and Italy) plus Bayern.

Author: anita
Date: 07-12-2004, 14:56

Agree with you ignjat. Despite the somewhat surprises that may occur, that's just the charm with football and not a token of a 'New Age'.

When it comes to Norway and Scandinavia, I think Rosenborg reached the absolute maximum in 99-00 winning their CL group ahead of Feyenoord, Dortmund and Boavista.

In Scotland the gap between Old Firm and rest of the teams give an incompetitive league where all teams suffer from that gap.

I am more curious when it come to Russia and what these days still is called Ukraine. Lot of money pouring into some teams, especially in Russia, and if used properly, who knows? Not so many years ago Spartak was a force in European football, and Dynamo Kiev may take another step this season after some meager years. Advantage for Dynamo is that their league seem to be more and more competitive, compared to former years.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: ignjat63 Date: 07-12-2004, 15:18	About Russia and Ukraine. I was always amazed how well Soviet Union did in Eurocups in overall ranking considering they started competing in late 60s. So I would not be very surprised if their teams join the top clubs these days. But I don't think they will make it. One or two of them may be "immediately below" the best Euro clubs.

Author: Stef
Date: 07-12-2004, 23:20

anita:
"I am more curious when it come to Russia and what these days still is called Ukraine."
This phrase sounds for me rather offensive. I hope, that you didn't mean what you have said.
One Ukrainian has guaranteed place in the starting squad: Anatoly Tymoshchuk, the captain of the team (injure right now). Andriy Vorobyey plays often enough. Bjelik - sometimes. 2 - 3 more Ukrainians are playing very seldom.
But I'm sure that in 5 years the situation will change and more ukrinian players will play in our clubs..

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: anita Date: 07-12-2004, 23:53	Absolutely no offense, Stef. I just read other pages in newspapers besides football pages. And yes, several Russian and Ukrainean teams have a lot of foreign key players. Dangerous development if it continues. Young Ukraine players may not get the chance of playing in top teams because the club owners prefer to buy foreign players. Short-sighted, and the typical hurry-hurry-we want success NOW!

Author: Stef
Date: 08-12-2004, 07:24

I'm sure that Ukraine will not disappear from political map of Europe and will be pleasing us with it's club's results in European cups for many years

And about foreign players:
In 1991 the USSR collapsed and starting from 1992 Ukraine had huge economical problems. The state had no money for maintaining football schools. The situation changed in the end of 90-th years. Right now clubs are putting enough money into growing new playears. But ~10 years were lost.
Children usually come to football schools while being 6 - 8 years old. 12 years ago the crisis started. So, the people who could start learning in 1992 are 20 now.
And that's the reason of having not too much talented players of this age in our clubs.
But now situation with football schools changed to better and i think that in 6 - 10 years we'll have much more ukrainians in the squads of our leading clubs.

Author: Reg
Date: 08-12-2004, 09:27

ANITA And yes, several Russian and Ukrainean teams have a lot of foreign key players. Dangerous development if it continues. Young Ukraine players may not get the chance of playing in top teams because the club owners prefer to buy foreign players. Short-sighted, and the typical hurry-hurry-we want success NOW!
Yesterday PSG- CSCA 1x3 (CSCA has 2 - 18 years players, 2- 21 years, 2- 24 years, and 2 under 27 years - all Russian) - So I don`t think you are right - today in Russia football business is rather progressive and I think clever

Author: macaskil
Date: 08-12-2004, 11:27

I get the impression that the financial problems of both Celtic and Rangers have led to a slight narrowing of the gap with the other teams in the last year or so.

Unfortunately the results in Europe are likely to get worse with the OF unable to replace retiring and departing players as we have seen this season.

However, as far as I can work out the Old Firm still have turnovers at least 5 times that of the other teams, a ludicrous situation (back in the 80s the ratio was about 1.5 or 2 to 1 and the league was genuinely competitive)

Author: anita
Date: 08-12-2004, 13:25

yes, macaskil, in Norway I will estimate Rosenborgs turnover to be app. 25% higher than Valerengen and Brann, and the gap decreasing. And we are talking of 8 mill euros (Rosenborg) compared to maybe 5 mill for the other clubs. A gap that may be easily closed by one sole and steady investor. It is impossible to fill the gap between Old Firm and the other teams in Scotland for years and years.

Reg, if you read my post dated 07.12.04.,14:56, you will see that I am cautiously optimistic regarding Russian football. Just pointing out that an (uncontroled?) import of foreign players to achieve immediate success is like pissing in your pants to keep warm in winter. Feels good at once, but when the piss freezes, you are worse off.

To import some class players to give team a boost and young players inspiration, may be wise policy. But filling the whole A-team with foreign legionnaires, seems short-sighted and stupid to me.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: maranton Date: 08-12-2004, 13:27	About Ukranian football: Last night against barca Shaktior did not have any Ukranian players in the starting 11 of their squad. only 2 ukranians were used as substitutes. Is that good for ukranian football?

Author: neill
Date: 08-12-2004, 15:37

re. Scottish football, I believe reports of an Aberdeen renaissance are very premature. They have had a good half season but let us see where they are in May when their thin squad is pushed to the limit. I wonder if the perception of Aberdeen as a 'big' club by Europeans outside Scotland is based entirely on their performances in UEFA competitions in the early 1980s. Since then they have made little impact in the Scottish Premier League and almost no impact in European competitions.

For a third 'force' in Scotland look towards Hearts who now have an impressive co-efficient ranking which could see them competing regularly in the UEFA cup group stages in future. Contrary to Anita I believe Hearts performances in Europe this year have been very impressive, some very big teams have failed to win in Basel and Hearts also won in Bordeaux last year.

I do agree though that the Old Firm will qualify for the two Champions League places every year for years to come.

Author: anita
Date: 08-12-2004, 15:58

Please, neill! I wrote :"Hearts' campaign in Europe this year is hardly not THAT convincing".

I haven't underranked or underestimated Hearts in any way. Last year NOR team Valerenga eliminated higher ranked Grazer and Wisla, and almost Newcastle.

Braga, Basel and Ferencvaros. OK, better than expected (from my point of view), but again, not convincing me that Hearts will be a future coming-up-team in Europe, which was the topic I was replying to.

I still have the feeling that all the "football-money" in Scotland is sucked into Old Firm, and that other clubs live by a kind of hand-to-mouth, and that is not good enough to create a stable team on mid-top-level in Europe.

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: neill Date: 08-12-2004, 16:10	Anita, sorry for the misunderstanding! I do think that my teams UEFA run will end on 16th December though, get your money on: Basel 1-0 Feyenoord A result that will suit both teams!

Author: anita
Date: 08-12-2004, 16:27

I am cheering on Hearts (and Feyenoord), not because I love Scottish football, but because Basel is a rival for Rosenborg on UEFA team ranking, and Switzerland is a rival to Norway on UEFA Country ranking.

If Feyenoord glance at the team ranking, they may discover that they need points to ensure second-seeding in CL next season, if they end up among 'two-best' in Dutch league this season. But I see your point, neill

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: neill Date: 08-12-2004, 16:48	Anita, I suspect Feyenoord (or indeed any team) pay any attention to UEFA co-efficients and rankings. Thank goodness for co-efficient freaks like you, I and everyone else who posts here. It should be our mission to educate Europe!

Author: oyvin
Date: 09-12-2004, 02:49

It is interesting times in Norwegian football, well, interesting if you're Norwegian, anyway

Rosenborg has lost a lot of its edge and stability and has markedly deteriorated this year. Whether they will get back to their former standard in time remains to be seen.

At the same time, two other cities teams appear to have improved significantly, and they pose a threat to Rosenborgs hegemony in a way that no team has for years. No competitor has showed any stability whatsoever from one season to the next for the last ten years, but there are signs this has changed. I rate V�lerenga as more likely than Brann to achieve this stability, but I'm of course biased. Both certainly may succeed.

Rosenborg isn�t the only choice for the best players any more. There is more competition in the media which decreases their significant revenue advantage, even before CL group stage money. The seeding system heavily favours teams that play every year. If Rosenborg doesn�t win the national league every year they will certainly dip beneath the seeding line for CLQ3.

Will Rosenborg lose more ranking points than the other teams gain? My guess is that Norway will pick up more points due to better #2-#3s than we lose through lack of one very good seeded team. (This year is an argument in favor. One UC participant was relegated, the second had to qualify to stay, and the third ended eighth out of fourteen.) We will have more teams that do something, but rarely anything impressive

This of course assumes that Rosenborg doesn�t get back to where it was, which in no way is certain. They�re definitely Norwegian championship favorites next year, too�

Author: anita
Date: 09-12-2004, 03:15

oyvin, I like your comment on (1)VALERENGA and (2) STABILITY (meaning primarily economical stability). Every Norwegian with limited football knowlewdge know that those two have been bitter enemies since I can remember.

I agree with you that Valerenga and Brann Bergen seem to have resources to fight with Rosenborg, maybe even next year. When it comes to coeff-points for Rosenborg, they will be better off playing in UC group stage, and in UCR1 Rosenborg will be seeded for many years to come.

With the new UC-format, the golden rule for mid-mediocre teams like Rosenborg is even more significant. Every other year in UC group stage to collect UEFA-points, and every other year in CL to collect money.

God natt!

Re: prediction for the future II
Author: maciosgh Date: 09-12-2004, 10:15	I like that Viking cold-thinking Wonder, who will it be in the long run - Rosenborg or Skonto - this season both were close to finishing second, maybe next year both will at last be beaten...

Author: pollymac
Date: 09-12-2004, 16:06

re: Ukraines' foreign imports

Very bad for Ukraines national teams development.

This is exactly what happened here with Rangers over the last 15 years and more latterly with Celtic. A few years ago our country, with aging players and no real young talent coming through, were ranked 20th in the world rankings.

Now that the older guys have retired, our national team has no players, with the exception of Darren Fletcher at ManU, playing for any top European club. Changed days from Souness, Dalglish, Hansen et al. Anyway this has seen an alarming drop down the Fifa Rankings to our current proud position of 77th.

Ukraine beware.