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Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Zibir Date: 16-11-2004, 12:52	Have a place in your league stimulation one of the rival in match by 3rd side?

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: anita Date: 16-11-2004, 13:11	I may be slow, and my English may not be perfect, so could you please rephrase and explain what you mean, Zibir?

Author: macaskil
Date: 16-11-2004, 13:50

I think he means to ask whether there is competition to the top 1 or 2 clubs from other teams in your league.

If that is correct - to answer for Scotland - sadly, no, not at the moment.

Even in England there is a gap between the top 3 and the rest. I know Man U are struggling this year but I can't see this situation lasting. Liverpool, Newcastle and the rest never quite seem able to make a challenge over more than one season.

France is the only truly competitive major league in the sense that at least half a dozen clubs compete for the title.

Author: isidromv
Date: 16-11-2004, 14:20

I think the question is if teams fighting for something (championship, EC qualification, relegation) stimulate the opponents of their rivals in the fight.

The answer for Spain is: "of course, there is such a stimulation".

At the end of every season there are lots of rumors about what we call 'primes to 3rd party', even some players (and teams) recognized that they have received them.

It is not officially allowed, but they exist and nobody try to pursue them.

And not only in Primera Division, also in 2nd and 3rd levels.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Ricardo Date: 16-11-2004, 14:34	The title is financial stimulation, so I guess isidromv answers the question. I don't know of those things happen in Holland. You hear sometimes that a crate of beer is promised, or sth like that. There haven't been any accusations here, at least not that I can remember.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Ase Date: 16-11-2004, 14:39	No, Zibir asks whether the financial stimulation of one of the rivals in the match by the third club is permitted by the rules of your domestic league. In order to make him struggle for the victory of course, not for the defeat

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: isidromv Date: 16-11-2004, 14:45	That's the same I wnted to say. This kind financial stimulation of 3rd parties is not allowed in Spain but everybody do it.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Zibir Date: 16-11-2004, 15:05	Friends, I explain in terms of an example: There is game of 2 clubs "A" and "B". There is 3rd side, club "C". For club "C" needs defeat of club "B", and for club "A" points is unimportant (it finished). Then club "C" decided disburse to club "A" for victorious eagerness. Have you it in your league? (legally or unlegally or maybe it's unduly)

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: mark Date: 17-11-2004, 06:06	I don't now if this kind of reward is legal in israel, but it sure happens in the lower leagues. In the premier league I hadn't heard of such things for some time, but I'm sure that from time to time players get money from third side to make an extra effort.

Author: anita
Date: 17-11-2004, 13:01

There is a fine, thin line between bribery and stimulation, and as mark write, it probably happen in lower leagues where "third" team may offer some 'flowers'.

It is hardly allowed officially, but I think there's no harm in it as long as it is a stimulation to do their best. Another case would be (in Zibirs example) if there was a club "D" interesting in club "A" doing as lousy as possible and offer some stimulation for club "A" to lose.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: ignjat63 Date: 17-11-2004, 14:24	I guess everything is legal if not explicitly forbidden. It is forbidden to stimulate financially a team to lose but offering extra money to do what it is supposed to do in the first place cannot I think be illegal.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: ignjat63 Date: 17-11-2004, 14:47	I guess everything is legal if not explicitly forbidden. It is forbidden to stimulate financially a team to lose but offering extra money to do what it is supposed to do in the first place cannot I think be illegal.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Todor Date: 17-11-2004, 16:52	In Bulgaria , two years ago Levski officially announced they would stimulate every team that manage to take points from CSKA. It wasn't received very well by the public opinion and the press , but it gave some results. Last year Levski again officially announced that they would stop this practice.

Author: anita
Date: 17-11-2004, 20:01

In lower amateur leagues, OK, but in PL, where they all are professional, it seems silly to need an offer from third club to do your best. And it opens up a kind of blackmail-practice, "If we don't get so an so much from you (third club), we will not....".

No bias, but in countries where you find such a practice, you will normally find a lot of other hidden payments and briberies and embezzlement.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 18-11-2004, 19:17

I never heard anything like this in the French League (3rd party financing), but that does not mean that it does not happen.

In Champions League, my club Lyon experienced twice a situation where they had to win the last game vs. a team that was already out: 2001, CL 2nd round, vs. Spartak and 2002, CL 1st round vs. Rosenborg. In both games we made a draw that prevented us to go through and thus enabled Arsenal then Ajax to go further in the competition.
For these 2 games, I have surprised to see how committed were our opponents. I think that it is fair that these teams did their best to play against us and we just have to blame ourselves if we were not able to win these games (all the more that in both games we missed a huge chance in the diying seconds to win).
However, when you see these teams wasting some time in the last ten-fifteen minutes, whereas they are just making a draw, I felt a bit concerned. Fine if they want to beat us, but why are they so happy to get a draw and thus ready to waste some time, at home in front of their fans, instead of trying to win that game ? I had the feeling that it was not very clear. I don't know if Anita or any Spartak fan remember these games or can say something about that, but I would be interested to get their feed-back.
Again, I don't question their commitment. That's just fair-play and I would be proud if my team did the same. But why wasting some time in the last fifteen minutes when you're just making a draw vs. a team like Lyon ?

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: Todor Date: 19-11-2004, 07:09	Unfortunately , you are right Anita.

Author: anita
Date: 19-11-2004, 09:24

Yes, I am afraid so, Todor. And to you, Lyonnais, when Rosenborg got mushed 5-0 in Lyon in first match to a far better team, Rosenborg are (and should be) realistic enough to go for draw at home when they see/feel that they are up to a far better team.

You see, every point count. That's the original topic for this Forum. Seedings and rankings. OK, we could have played like Denmark vs. Brazil in WC-98. Trying to play Brazilian against Brazil. Almost went through for Denmark, but 'almost' is not worth a shit in football.

If Rosenborg had moved all their players up to score a winning goal (kamikaze), it would not have been fair to other teams in group (Ajax and Inter). Rosenborg played for the ultimate (best possible) result, not the maximum. I didn't see the match vs. Spartak, but give the 'indifferent' teams credit for playing for the best result they felt able to achieve.

I have emphazised this umpteen times on Forum. If you can't score against a team that play defensive and 'using their time', don't blame the other team. "The other team played cowardly and lousy, so we didn't win". Helloooo!

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: SHEV Date: 19-11-2004, 10:12	President of Dynamo Kiev admitted that in 1999 Maribor was stimulated financially in a match against Bayer Leverkusen. They managed to hold a draw and Dynamo went through that year to the second group stage.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: anita Date: 19-11-2004, 10:51	I find it demeaning and degrading when a club condescend to such economic incentives from third club. If I was Maribor coach, I would have protested to UEFA or whatever on such patronizing behaviour. All the actors should be ashamed. But to send 'flowers and chocolate' after the match, that's a polite and grateful gesture.

Re: Financial stimulation by 3rd side
Author: ignjat63 Date: 19-11-2004, 14:31	Sorry for not remembering details (names of clubs' involved) but I do distinctly remember some years ago in Spanish Primera there was something about financial stimulation in the last rounds for the opponents of the championship contenders (Barcelona?Deportivo?) I remember two contenders stimulated financially their rival's opponents. I cannot be less vague than this. Any of you recalling this?