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Author: igrima18
Date: 12-11-2004, 10:12

What are your predictions regarding the World Cup Qualifier between minnow Malta and Hungary. I think that although Malta have drawn against Iceland and also opened the score against Bulgaria, they still are the "favourites" to loose this game. Can anyone point out some important and valid Hungarian players????

Király (Crystal Palace FC), Rabóczki (FC København), Szücs (Ferencvárosi TC),

Juhász (MTK Hungária FC), Gyepes (Ferencvárosi TC), Stark (Györi ETO FC), Szélesi (FC Energie Cottbus),

Huszti (Ferencvárosi TC), Füzi (MTK Hungária FC), Rósa (Ferencvárosi TC), Lipcsei (Ferencvárosi TC), Fehér (PSV Eindhoven), Tóth (Videoton FCF), Hajnal (K. Sint-Truidense VV), Dárdai (Hertha BSC Berlin),

Gera (West Bromwich Albion FC), Torghelle (Crystal Palace FC), Kovács (Viking FK), Waltner (Zalaegerszegi TE), Rajczi (Újpesti TE).

and what are you predictions of the score?? I think a trash of 5-0!!!!!!!

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: yirdum Date: 12-11-2004, 12:34	what they need is puskash , i still remember game hungary -yugoslavia my prediction 2:1 hungary p.s. turkey-ukraine=1:1(emre-voronin)

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: SHEV Date: 14-11-2004, 08:46	yirdim, i doubt Voronin will be in squad after what hi done with Georgia. My prediction 0-2(Shevchenko-2), or i just hope it'll be so

Author: yirdum
Date: 14-11-2004, 11:39

2 shev:

we dont have such good middle field like milan , sheva- one-star player, if he wanna receive golden ball from france football he better make play or else RONALDIHNO

georgians have to take 2 points from danish muffins
and greeks trash kazahstan with usual =1:0

p.s.
my nickname is have to read in backwards =mudriy a.k.a.ÌÓÄÐÈÉ A.K.A."wise" for good grades in school and how to cheat for them
ÒÀÊ! Í² ÕÀÌÓ!!

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: anita Date: 16-11-2004, 13:46	igrima18, I didn't know that Kovacs(Viking FK in Norway) was in the Hungarian squad, but it proves that "the times they are a-changing". Fifty years ago that would have been rather sensational.... And it wouldn't help Hungary to join forces with old pals from double-monarchy, Austria, because they are just as lousy as Hungary nowadays. But please, Malta??? My guess is 4-0 Hungary.

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: maciosgh Date: 17-11-2004, 19:14	And I, personally would like a 1:1 draw...Malta had a good start against Bulgaria )

Author: LL43
Date: 18-11-2004, 20:38

I should like to comment on Yirdum?s comment posted on 14-11-2004 11:39

Dear Wise guy or shall I say Mudriy tsoglan?
I copy from your comment
"and greeks trash kazahstan with usual =1:0"
The English word "trash" means worthless material (trash-can) and in American English worthless people
(as in white trash). I hope that you did not refer to Greeks or Kazaks as trash.
I have met a turk who had difficulties at pronouncing "th" and used "t" instead. So, most likely you mean thrash instead of trash. The irony in your phrase is transparent. Displaying arrogance combined with ignorance has no place in this forum. Coming back to your point I think that even Brazil would be satisfied with three consecutive 1-0 (against France, Czech and Portugal at their home). But otherwise, as you have maybe noticed, teams and schools of football come and go. England, Hungary, Brazil, Germany, France, Turkey, Greece etc.

Keep political disputes away from this Forum!

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 18-11-2004, 21:21

As a verb (in slang) "to trash" or also "to waste" means "to beat the shit out of" or in polite tone "to win with a big margin". Now knowing the attractive and attacking football Greece plays, our Ukranian friend was being sarcastic, which I couldn't resist to be either. I don't believe he was trying to insult Greece as a people, so don't be so quick to pull the trigger. Different styles come and go - true. We all have the right to like them or not. If I were Greek I'd probably love their style as long as they're winning. But let's be honest here and realize how many non-Greeks enjoyed the kind of football they played? I was cheering for them until the game vs the Czech rep when I realized that this was just simply wrong and they're killing the joy of the game for me. The final was very ugly as well. Football is entertainment. People watch it for fun. The aim of the players is to score goals (or at least try to), not to try to prevent them. That's the beauty of it. For most of us at least. And for the sake of the game, teams like Greece, Austria and Belgium should not make it to the WC (nothing against the people in these countires).

Author: LL43
Date: 18-11-2004, 21:45

To Balkan Tourist!

Check your slang dictionary! Most likely you haven?t got one! Your slang was created somewhere in balkan!

So, do not lie! Your opinion about Greek football is a product of envy. I wish you had seen the analysis made by a Swedish expert (Ola Anderson) about the misconception that Greek football is ugly. He disproved and pulverised all the arguments by concrete examples, drawings on the display, pausing, explaining and PROVING beyond doudt that Greek football is very smart and aggressive. Which back was awarded a penalty!
Read the analysis at www.goal.com

Never mind! Aesop had a nice fable about a fox and some grapes she could not reach! They were sour!
I guess that you never felt the enormous joy of having your country becoming European Champion.

The rest is a poor analysis (sentimentally loaded with no clear critical mind at hand) and wishful thinking!

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 18-11-2004, 22:24

Dude, don't make an ass of yourself!
I can almost see the spit coming out of your mouth.Calm down and be happy

! I never insulted your people. I am not underestimating the achievement the Greek team accomplished. I am happy for you. All I said was that I didn't like the way they did it. I am sure you did, because you're biased. And no, I am not the fox. I don't envy you. I might if you managed to do it again, but I DOUBT it. So be happy while you can, cause in 12 years very few people would remember it. Teams are remembered because of the way they played, their stars, personalities, the legacy they left. Greece came out of the blue and will disappear into oblivion very soon. As soon as they don't make it to Germany. So enjoy your moment!
You don't have to prove anything to me. You can't make me like Greece because the way they play. I liked Turkey in 02 because they played like the Brazilians - attractive football. I was happy for them. I liked Croatia in 98. No one can dispute the quality of Suker, Boban and co. I was proud of them! I liked Bulgaria and Romania in 94. Hagi - Maradona of the Carpatians and Stoitchkov "the dagger". I cheer for all Balkan teams. I cheered for Greece as well at the beginning of the tournament. So don't think that I have anything against your team in particular. I but I really hope that Greece will come back to the style of football the Balkan nations are known for. Leave the German style for the Germans. I've never liked their style and never will.
P.S. I don't know English from dictionaries. I live in the U.S. and interect with English spekaing people every day. I'm familiar with the slang used around here.

Author: LL43
Date: 18-11-2004, 23:45

Balkan tourist!
1) Do not get personal. (Dude... my people...)
2) Do not invoke things that you cannot see (I can see the spit coming out of your mouth)
3) Do not predict the future( Greece wíll not make it to Germany)
4) Do not use "appeal to authority" when the authority is a defiant child sentimentally loaded as yourself. (This is obvious from theway you formulate your arguments.)
5) Do you really think there is a balkan school of football?

There are as many logical fallacies in your answer as sentences. The fact that you live in U.S. " and interact with english speaking people every day" does not make you an expert. A mexican servant in San Diego Ca. interacts equally well with english speaking people every day but she hardly qualifies as an expert of English. Besides, in a public forum you should avoid idiomatic phrases, as this can give rise to misunderstandings.
Your way of arguing discloses shortcomings in your education. Get a library card and do some basic reading. A good place to start is Aristotle, some dialogues of Plato ..., unless you are mathematically inclined. In that case start with Euclid?s Elements. Definitions, Axioms, Theorems and most of all Proofs!
A cource in "Critical Thinking" can be beneficial.

The content of the last paragraph is composed as to tease you, since it is obvious that you hate Greece. You hope that the Greek triumph will be forgotten after 12 years. You remember the triumph(?) of Bulgaria 10 years ago (Sweden-Bulgaria 4-0) for the third place! Three defeats in Euro2004! How come you still remember Bulgaria and you hope you will forget Greece after 12 years? Unfortunately for you Greece is surrounding you from everywhere! Democracy, Science, Art, and all the good things!

By the way, Greece will be in Germany in the Conferatios Cup June 2005 already! And play against Brazil!

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 19-11-2004, 00:07

Like I said, I have nothing against Greece as a country or it's people. There are bad apples in every basket.
I go to college so I am already educating my self, but thanks for the advice.
And thirdly, I was just pointing out that you shouldn't take all this so personal. I am not going to waste my time here arguing about nothing. This went totally off topic. Trust me, no one is "out there to get you". Like I said you don't have to prove anything to me. You can't make me like the Greek team. Just like you can't tell me what to do or not to do. We live in democracy after all, but wait, you should know already about democracy because you are....Greek.

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 19-11-2004, 00:17

4) Do not use "appeal to authority" when the authority is a defiant child sentimentally loaded as yourself. (This is obvious from theway you formulate your arguments.)
5) Do you really think there is a balkan school of football?
Did you produce that after reading your "Critical Thinking" book? And since you did, explain to me, the not so educated one (since I obviously don't happen to be Greek (We can't all be so lucky,eh!)) what exactly did you mean by that? Which "authority" are we talking about here? The football governing body, the EU, or the Greek authorities?
And what school are we talking about? You can't see that Turkey, Croatia, Serbia, Bulgaria and Romania play one style, different to let's say Norway and Finland?!
And good luck to you, I hope you are around this site next year around this time.

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: yirdum Date: 19-11-2004, 01:04	2 ll43: 1=i meant thrash look in other topic about UKRAINE 2= i dont like teams with same results plus 70s style football. 3=greece-kazahstan=3:1(WOW) 4=my english not very good even im in usa 5=no disrespects for other countries & where u from that u know what i wrote?? 6=this topic is off-topic

Author: anita
Date: 19-11-2004, 12:19

A wise coach once said:"A good football match is a football match my team win". That's the point. Spectators usually don't attend football matches to be entertained. They come to see their team produce a results, i.e. score goals and prevent the opponent to score. If you want to be 'entertained', go see a movie. I can recommend "Shrek" and Shrek II".

BalkanTourist claim that Turkey played Brazilian football vs Brazil in WC-02, If so, quite stupid, wasn't it? "We played well, didn't we?" Helloooo, you lost both matches! Entertaining for me as non-Turk, but not for my betting, since I had put 100 euros on Turkey to win WC. Ahead of the tournament. OK,OK. Got good odds.

BalkanTourist write:"but I really hope that Greece will come back to the style of football the Balkan nations are known for". What kind of football is Balkan known for? Solid, stable 'Eastern European' football with too many ill-tempered 'personalities'. It may sound rasistic (maybe it is, what do I know?), but in Norway we use the phrase "Balkan temper". Zlatan(?). Stoichkov?

And I like 'fighting Scotland', but Sweden thrashed the trash on Wednesday. Keep smiling

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: BalkanTourist Date: 19-11-2004, 21:04	I'd pay to see Turkey or Croatia any day over Norway or Scotland. And if you can't see the diference in styles, than that's too bad for you, guy with a woman's name .

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: SHEV Date: 20-11-2004, 02:17	Anita you're biased. South football is more exciting and attractive. You should admit that even if your country/clubs never played that style. Of course football is a game of getting result, but getting it with technique is just more interesting then with power if you doesn't support that team.

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 20-11-2004, 06:45

Amen to that!
Of course if I was Norwegian I'd love to se Norway win, I'd care much less about how they did it. A win is a win. But to the regular football fan, who just watches the game for the beauty of the game, a game between Portugal and Netherlands or Brazil and Argentina will be a lot more appealing than let's say Germany and England (although I must admit England has much improved imho) or Scotland and Austria. I remember one of the dullest games at the WC I've ever seen (I've been watching the WC since 86) is between Ireland and Norway at the WC'94. It was just a pain to watch it.
There are always exceptions though. Sweden and Denmark play a lot more exciting football than they used to.
There is nothing wrong with defensive and more physical kind of football. It gets the results and makes people happy (the ones that support that team of course). It's just a matter of tastes. Everyone is free to choose which style to like.

Author: LL43
Date: 21-11-2004, 03:32

To Balkan Tourist.
I agree with the beginning of your answer posted 19-11-2004 00:07. You wrote "I am not going to waste my time here arguing about nothing. This point is totally out of topic." I was glad when I read this because I do not think that this forum should be used to assert one?s cultural superiority at the expence of any other culture however insignificant.

BUT THEN
you go on with five more sentences containing new attacks and even distortions of what I wrote and fantacies. And as if this was not enough 10 minutes later, at 00:17, you came anew, more aggressive this time, asking me questions, some retorical but mostly ironic.
You have to admit that yirdum?s post the same day at 01:04 proved that I was right in every aspect of what I had written in my first post on this topic to him!
Anita?s remarks should calm you down and turn you on a more civilized mode. But instead you became more unreasonable and even rude by calling her "guy with a woman?s name". Even if you are right, this does not change Anita?s argumentation. Besides, it is way out of the internet etiquette. This kind of argument is called "ad hominem" and it means you do not answer to the argument but you attack "the person"(=ad hominem, accusative of homo, hominis....).It is a way of arguing that immature persons employ very often. In your writings here in this topic, you have employed it several times.
I am not trying to impose anything on you. But defending ome?s ideas is a democratic right and of cource I will try to persuade you that I am right! This is still democracy. You might have a different idea about what democracy is. After all living right now in U.S.A. might give you wrong signals about what democracy is.
Another kind of argument used quite often is the "appeal to authority". In talking about philosophy for example you can state what Aristotle said. This is called appeal to authority. I appealed to the authority of Ola Andersson (which you unfortunately cannot check) and www.goal.com (which you can check). Of cource there are the opinions of journalists mostly and not exactly authorities. But you appealed to your feelings, and wrong ideas about Balkan being homogeneous in its Football Culture. It is totally wrong. Balkan has many different schools of football. There are still some similarities between Croatian and the other ex-yugoslavian teams, but they are disappearing. Greek football had no school. Every new national coach (they change very often) had his own ideas and was not building upon anything. Until Otto Rehhagel came. He created a team that employed partially man-to-man marking, that was considered outmoded football. Looking at the results especially at Euro2004, (Pauleta was swept out By Kapsis twice, Baros the first scorer dissapeared when he was marked by Seitarides, etc) he was justified. But the man-to-man marking of the star players of the opponent was combined by changing from defence to attack very fast. And there was the main weapon of the Rehhagel team. So Greek football at national level has ethnic greeks as players but it is Rehhagel?s school. Not German! Nor anything else. Just Rehhagel. South American Football can be of various schools. And even different periods of e.g. Argentinian football are easily discernible. Talking about Balkan football is an almost empty subject!
You have to distinguish between Greek as an ethnic term and Greek as a cultural type of person, that loves Democracy, Critical Thinking, Science, Sports, Art, Politics, Theatre. I have met ethnic Greeks which were more Turkish than Turks and Swedes that were more Greeks than Greeks. Any other combination may be valid since there are enough persons travelling all over the world, reading books, seeing television series etc.

I cannot understand your remark "I hope you are around this site next year around this time."

By the way, there is a grammatical mistake that appears more and more often and it starts to irritate me! You write "I have nothing against Greece as a country or it?s people". Please replace it?s by its. it?s is an abbreviation of it is. What you mean here is the possessive its (mine, yours, his, her, its...)

Did you have a nice time with the last game between Croatia and Bulgaria? They play in the same group together with Sweden.

Author: anita
Date: 21-11-2004, 19:04

I can hardly see that I have been biased towards "Balkan" football, and I have not claimed that the game Norway use(d) to play, is the best. The 'best' football is when you use your resources as good as possible (optimum). And even though Norway mostly had international B-players in WC-94 and played 'boring', it's unfair to pick out the match vs. Ireland. Both teams hoping that a draw would be enough to get through to next round, and played for that. Just like West Germany and Austria did in WC-82, when 1-0 was enough for both.

And SHEV, you write :"South football is more exciting and attractive. You should admit that even if your country/clubs never played that style". I don't know your age, but you should know (through Rosenborg matches vs Dynamo Kiev) that Rosenborg and NOR national squad last 10 years have played two totally different styles/schools.

And I still think that winning with 'power' when you lack individual skills, is better than playing a kind of football you don't master, and then lose. I could hope that NOR national squad and players could master all of this, but as long as we don't, we'll stick to the style that give us the most points, don't you think?

And BalkanTourist, using other nicknames to insult, is somewhat low, isn't it? Or is it normal Balkan behaviour and Balkan temper? Well, obviously different schools/styles there, at least.

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: BalkanTourist Date: 21-11-2004, 23:31	You got insulted because I said you were a guy. Sorry, you got what you asked for...... I am not biased either. I always cheer for the underdog, so I've taken Rosenborg's side on many occasions. That doesn't mean that I enjoy the kind of play they practice, but I did enjoy it when they managed to check some of the big clubs.

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: BalkanTourist Date: 21-11-2004, 23:37	Oh,and madam, being "rasistic" will get you "trashed" anywhere you go, so I'd be more careful with making generalizations and asumptions if I were you. Don't complain if I am being low, look at yourself first.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 22-11-2004, 10:39

In early seventies when Pele was playing his good-bye match he chose Yugoslavia for Brasilian opponents. That was great compliment to us because we were obviously respected then as school of football. Unfortunately the invention of total football and later development of the game did not suit us and we never managed to recover. Something good was beginning to happen in late 80s but then it was too late for the country. And it is the players from that period who reached their maturity in 90s that BalkanTourist likes in Croatia (Suker, Boban and the like). Now ex-yu football is down in the guter with no chance of recovering in near (or far) future. And in club football except for Steaua in 86 and Red Star in 91 Balcan clubs never managed to do anything worthy of mentioning. So much for Balcan football (unfortunately, because I always cheer for Balcan teams). So giving Balcan football any positive attributes is rather absurd. When people talk of “Southern football” being attractive they mean Portugal, Spain, France and Italy. They certainly don’t mean Balcan.

As for the different styles of playing there was another topic called The most unpopular football tactics. A lot has been said here that was already discussed there. I’ll just say that national football styles are a bit like mamma’a cooking. The way beans are cooked in Serbia has nothing to do with the way the beans are cooked in England. And being Serbian, I’ll always be biased towards “our way” of doing things (cooking beans, playing football etc). Well, most of the time anyway.

Author: anita
Date: 22-11-2004, 13:19

I have no problems admitting that NOR national teams way of playing in the nineties (and further) was boring. Surprisingly effective, though. Rosenborg chose an almost contrary style (using midfield and flanks/wings). Both teams with international success (comparatively, of course). And other clubs in Norway 'copied' one or the other. I think that have been positive for the development of new players that clubs don't play the same way/tactics/style.

In lot of countries I observe that they have just one school. At least they pretend so. Not too many years ago all British clubs and national teams played the same style. To play 'continental' was almost treason to British values and the 'inventors' of football. And I think we all can agree that it is the diversity in styles and schools that give the best result (or entertainment?) over time. And challenging when you have to change tactics depending on which team you meet.

And I really don't hope Balkan teams will copy Slovenian national team. They were extremely lucky against Italy, but got severely punished by Norway. Very, very contrary style (suicidal) compared to the so-called Balkan football when Yugoslavija was on their best.

And btw, I had Bulgaria as winner in WC-94 (good odds then as well). Solid team with brilliant Stoitsjkov and Kostadinov and a couple of players that I wouldn't dare to meet in broad daylight on Main Street

Author: dawgs
Date: 03-12-2004, 00:16

hey,

just as the tempers got cooled i'll risk putting this thread back on top of the forum

i just wanted to touch on several points i found funny

anita has spoken in a dismisive terms about the "balkans" before (maybe because balkan is such a beautiful word in norwegian hehe) - in a topic about dinamo zagreb, and yet she always bets on the balkan underdog. cudos

balkantourist contrasted the greek style '04 (man marking, quick transition form total defence to lethal attack as explained later) to the bulgarian style '94. funny as this was exatly the strategy the bulgarians so successfully employed to reach the WC semifinal (watch your games my friends). and yeah - i also believe the bulgarians in 94 had better players, who could spice their game with unforgettable moments of briliance then and again, but the greeks in 04 were better at winning. and in 12 years the way the greeks won will be forgotten, but their win will be rememebred forever. homer and co will immortalize it in an epic

and the third funny thing was: no balkan style. come on now, one will never say such a thing if he had had a chance to play himself w/ people from different regions in europe, nevermind watching the games on the tv or at the stadium. there is a balkan football style: flashy in attack, slow in midfield and brutal in defence. just my 2 cent

and yeah - hungary won over malta, cheers everybody

Author: BalkanTourist
Date: 03-12-2004, 13:29

Why do you have to open Pandora's box again? I know Greek title will be remembered by the Greeks and the soccer statistics and people who like them. The Greek team deserves it after all. Winners cannot be judged.
To compare Greece'04 with Bulgaria of 94 is wrong. Bulgaria did not play total football. They did not wait to be attacked instead attacked themselves. The only game they played relying on counterattacks was Argentina-Bulgaria 0:2. They beat Greece 4:0 and could have made it to the final if it wasn't for the French referees. The whole world saw the volleyball skills of Alessandro Costacurta. What if it was 2:2? I still believe Brazil would have won it all. Bulgaria had imagination and skills but were not trained enough to sustain 7 games on high level.
I could go on with examples of Croatia'98 and Turkey in'02 where they both played very attractive football.
And about Balkan football - its brilliance is in its innovativeness and randomness. You never know when they might explode. They lack discipline in general. Greece was no different. The difference is called Otto. If it wasn't for him to bring that "missing piece" that compliments the Balkan style, Greece wasn't gonna even make it to the finals. So there should be a monument of him in front of Greek national stadium.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 04-12-2004, 12:58

"And about Balkan football - its brilliance is in its innovativeness and randomness". Well, BalkanTourist, what it means in practise is that we fans are watching games in frustration and desperation, biting our nails, waiting for our players to actually do something with the ball (or to "explode"). Hardly brilliant by any standard.

I agree, though, with German discipline and organization and our potential being a perfect combination. Perhaps Greece with Rehagel and Partizan with Matthaus were on the right track.

Re: Malta Vs Hungary on 17th November(predicitions)
Author: dawgs Date: 04-12-2004, 15:47	i understood the "explosion" thing that balkantourist mentioned to be the quick change of pace. and the "nail-bitting" stuff... ain't that right