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Author: Aliceag
Date: 22-10-2004, 06:07
| Ok, to clarify the yo yo here! Which of the Non G5 countries is the best??
Actualy we see Portugal, Greece, Holand...We also have seen Turkey, Czech around these places...
I'll give 1* to 5* to compare teams.
5* - Brilliant team, many times on CL and winning trophies
4* - Very Good teams, many times on europe and on further stages.
3* - Good team, many times in europe, passes rounds on UC, and reached at least on time CL.
2* - Not many times in europe, but when it does, it passes rounds OR regular in Europe but gains few points
1* - Some times in europe, and gain some points.
0* - Almost Irrelevant to the country ranking.
My analisys:
Portugal has one amazing team, better than all the NonG5 other medium countries: Porto. Due to this 5* team, it is currently on 6th place. Then we have Boavista, Benfica and Sporting good teams. The rest are all week teams and can't go further on UEFA.
Greece - Has no brilliant team, and has 4 Good teams: Pana, Olympiakos, AEK and PAOK. Has some reasonable teams that can pass some rounds in uefa.
Holand - Has no brilliant team, and has 3 Good teams:
Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord. Has some reasonable teams that can pass some rounds in uefa.
Wrapping this all up into numbers I'd have this ranking
for last 5 years.
(0* are excluded).
PORTUGAL
Porto 5*
Boavista 4*
Sporting 3*
Benfica 3*
Marítimo 1*
GREECE
Panathinaikos 4*
Olympiakos 3*
AEK 3*
PAOK 2*
Panionios 1*
Egaleo 1*
Iraklis 1*
HOLAND
PSV 4*
Feyenoord 4*
Ajax 3*
Heerenveen 2*
Utrecht 1*
Roda 1*
Twente 1*
SCOTLAND
Celtic 4*
Glasgow 3*
Hearts 1*
CZECH
Sparta Praga 3*
Slavia Praga 2*
Slovan Liberec 1*
TURKEY
Galatasaray 4*
Besiktas 2*
Fenerbaçe 2*
Gençlerbirligi 1*
Gaziantepspor 1*
Denizlispor 1*
BELGIUM
Anderlecht 3*
Brugge 3*
Genk 1*
Standard Liege 1*
Adding all this up we have
PORTUGAL 16*
HOLAND 16*
GREECE 15*
TURKEY 11*
SCOTLAND 8*
BELGIUM 8*
CZECH 6*
Conclusions:
They are pretty equal on the add.
The main difference is that Portugal survives due to one brilliant team, like turkey did, and when it fails all can be in dangerous.
Holand and GReece have many "few points" collected by minor teams, and their big teams cannot collect HUGE points.
On the long run I'd say that the yo yo between Portugal greece and holand shall continue, unless small teams from Portugal start winning something and that could pump up the country, or some of the big teams of greece and holand turn brilliant.
The followers Turkey, Scotland, Belgium and Czech are still somewhat far away and even other countries like Russia and Ucrania can start mingle with those.
What do you think on this? |
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Author: Osirius
Date: 22-10-2004, 07:39
| Aliceag
I haven't read your topic attentively,but the first thing wich drops to my eyes is that 5* is the team which is MANY TIMES(that means not always) in EUFA and even wins trophies in last 5 years.So to my memory comes two such teams which have only 4*.These are Feyenoord and Galatasaray UEFA CUP winners,or you mean only CL? |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 22-10-2004, 08:53
| It is a very interesting topic for me because I want to do some all-time team and country ranking. The most important thing here is to decide upon criteria for comparing clubs success in Euro-cups.Then you can easily calculate and rank countries.
Since Euro-cups are essentially knock-out competititons (despite Group stage) I suggest attaching points to rounds of competition. So, for example, the winner of UC should get 15 points (just an example), losing finalist 12, losing semifinalists 9, etc. Also, similar sistem for CL. Then you can easily rank countries and clubs based only on their success in Eurocups.
Actually, I am using similar system for all time ranking and I will be finishing it in a few days. |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 22-10-2004, 09:15
| I don't understand this giving stars.
On one side you look at current results- Ajax not doing well, so just 3*, while they where in the quarterfinals 2 years ago. On the other hand you rank Galtasaray 4*, while they don't even play in any European cup this year. (And Porto 5* while they loose every game sofar)
The idea is good, to get a general idea about the competition, but this is a stringe way of calculating it. |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 22-10-2004, 09:22
| If you look at this week: How many points did each country collect:Portugal 0.333
Greece 0.166
Holland 1.000
Belgium 0.000
Scotland 0.500
Turkey 0.250
Czech 0.250
future contenders:
Ukraine 0.800
Russia 0.500 Holland is on its way to 6th place again (well, let's start with 7th place, 6th will take at least another 2-3 years. And let's hope(?) Ukraine and/or Russia will not climb over them) |
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Author: idemaa
Date: 22-10-2004, 11:16
| HI,
first of all I wanted to say that giving Ajax a 3* is rediculous (and I can say I am definately not an Ajax supporter) but given it is the club that in the last 15 yrs with porto have been the only CL winners outside the G5 and I think having lost a final, 2 semi's etc...........
But I just wanted to add to the topic I think Holland is the best country because it has sustained a spot between 6-9 with 6 teams for a long time now. It looks like greece is dropping out before soon and I'm really curious how the portugese coefficients will be with six teams |
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Author: Joost
Date: 22-10-2004, 11:37
| It all depends on the time-span you're looking to. In the most recent future Portugal had the best with Porto winning uefa and CL and Holland and Turkey only winning a uefa cup.
But if you look to a longer timespan you will see Turkey only being good for the last decade or less or so and Portugal and Holland for a much longer time. With benfica winning the EC 1 2 times as did Porto. Ajax did win it 4 times(6 finals), PSV and Feyenoord both one. Thats 6 and the same number as Germany and 5 more than France!
So, if you look at the present there's not much difference maybe between Portugal, Holland, Greece and Turkey etc. But if you look to the past then the latter two are way behind.
What will happen in the future is hard to say, maybe Turkey will develop into a real topcountry in 20 years (footballcrazy, big country, EUmember, richer). In Holland they said in de mid 80s Holland could never ever win anything in the future. The past was nice but now it's done they said. Since then there were 2 EC1/CL and 2 uefa cups. Same goes for a nontopcounty to win the CL and look what Porto did last year. So who will tell... |
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Author: aydinfatih
Date: 22-10-2004, 15:01
| 5* - Brilliant team, many times on CL and winning trophies
4* - Very Good teams, many times on europe and on further stages.
3* - Good team, many times in europe, passes rounds on UC, and reached at least on time CL.
2* - Not many times in europe, but when it does, it passes rounds OR regular in Europe but gains few points
1* - Some times in europe, and gain some points.
0* - Almost Irrelevant to the country ranking.
i want especially speak about my team beşiktaş.
beşiktaş must be at least 3 let's look: many times: beşiktas was in europe last 15 years except 2 years. and in last 5 years, in europe 4 years.
passes round in UC: 2 years ago we were in quarter final
at least one time in CL: 3 times in CL,
first time 97-98 6 point 3rd
second time 01-02 4 point 4th
last time 03-04 7 point 3rd: and you now how we eliminated, because of foolish uefa decision(palying in germany) and sparta 90+ goal.
and i don't now how a team in 55th in club ranking is equal(which means your last 5 year performance), a team 100nd(fenerbahçe), and teams down from us 64th(benfica), 57th(lisbon)
also olimpiakos yes they are 45th in club rankings but, because they were in EC last 5 year and we were 4 years. and same thing for rangers(44th)
this is my ranking:
10:reached at least 1 time to CL final last 5 year
9:reached at least 1 time to CL semi-final or UC final
8:reached at least 1 time to CL quarter final or semi final of UC or 2 times to UC quarter
7:reached at least 1 time 2nd round of CL or quarter final of UC or 3 times to 4th round of UC
6:reached at least 3 time to CL or 2 times to 4th round of UC
5:reached at least 2 time to CL or 4th round of UC
4:reached at least 1 time to Cl or 2 times to 3rd round of UC
3:reached at least 1 time to 3rd round of UC
2:reached at least 2 time to 2nd round of UC
1:reached 1 time to UC 2nd round
PORTUGAL: 28
Porto 10
Boavista 8
Benfica 5
sporting 4
maritimo 1
GREECE: 28
Panathiniakos 8
AEK 7
olimpiakos 6
Paok 4
Aris 2
egaleo 1
HOLLAND: 43
Feyenoord 9
PSV 8
Ajax 8
Willhelm 4
Heerenven 4
vitesse 3
utrecht 2
roda 1
twente 1
AZ 1
SCOTLAND: 16
Celtic 9
rangers 5
hearts 2
CZECH: 24
sparta 6
slavia 6
slovan liberec 7
teplice 3
marila pribam 1
viktoria 1
TURKEY: 33
Galatasaray 8
Beşiktaş 7
fenerbahçe 5
gençlerbirliği 5
denizlispor 5
gaziantepspor 3
BELGİUM: 20
Anderlecht 7
brugge 6
racing genk 4
standart liege 2
beveren 1
so netherlands haw more points because of CL participiation, however they took very less points.
in future: turkey will rise up to 6th in next 10 years. because of population and popularity of football..
the 3 big istanbul giants have no economical problems for example: fenerbahçe spend 40 milyon dollars, beşiktaş 25 milyon dollars and galatasaray 10 milyon dollars which means they have good many sources and supporters. and all of them have at least 15 milyon supporters..
and netherlands will go back to 6th in next a few years. |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 22-10-2004, 15:06
| Maybe you need to divide these points by the number of teams that participated in those 5 years(eg Holland 5*6 = 30)? |
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Author: akis71
Date: 22-10-2004, 15:16
| I think the real fight for 6th place will be between Holland and Greece. Portugal is hard to keep it. Portugal got 6th place cause of having only 4 teams participating last 2 season and Porto won UC and CL those years. Half of the points that Portugal earned was from Porto.In last 5 years Portugal never continued with more than 3 teams after the end of UC round 1.
Holland has an advantage for the moment since their teams in UC had better draw than Greek teams but still will be hard to reach Portugal that year. |
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Author: Chill
Date: 22-10-2004, 15:22
| Sorry Aliceag but I'm doubtful this thread serves any purpose. Firstly some people haven't got a clue to which time span you're refering. Is it for all time? For the last five years? Or for this year?
- I can imagine that it's not for all time because other countries would be in aswell.
- If it's about the last five years, then there is no need for your scheme, the UEFA Coefficients give us a pretty good idea of which counrty has done better.
- If it's for this year only (which I also don't think so) then last 5 year's results are more or less irrelevant.
If this topic you added has to do anything with a suggestion I made in another thread, you haven't understood what I said. I just mentioned that it would be a good idea after a comment by Anita, to have a topic on which countries have the best 5th and 6th placed teams in their league, which as a result would help them keep 6 teams in UEFA Competitions if they succeed to get in the top 8. Otherwise it's too wide a topic.
P.S. To Aydinfatih - Don't you thing that it is a bit unfair to count only the best year of each team? So a team that reaches the CL Final once and has four group stages disqualifications gets the same points with a team that reached a final and four semi-finals?
Anyway - I'm sure we won't go anywhere with this - and I'm sure I can come up with a scheme myself that proves Greek teams are better (which I don't necessarily believe - to avoid any misunderstandings). |
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Author: Aliceag
Date: 23-10-2004, 02:32
| My idea was to look at last 5 years, BUT not to just look at numbers of UEFA ranking, because they can be erroneous... a team might get 6 points in rank and only have reached 2nd round UC and with the same 6 points reach 4th round. There's a difference there, that the UEFA rank doesn't count. And a team might be in europe almost EVERY year, and collect few points (like besiktas - that's why I gave only 2*) or might be in UEFA only once and get many points (like Alaves).
The main idea was to figure out then, looking at last 5 years, which teams really made a difference, and probably will do in future in order we can count on them to help the country. So, the more high star teams a country has probably will be a stable country in ranking(like holland). On other hand countries that have some brilliant teams but others weak tend to be yo yo countries (like Portugal or turkey).
Adding up this, we now want to figure what is the best country: the one yo yo which can be 10th and can be 6th, or the stable that is forever in 8th?? |
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Author: aydinfatih
Date: 24-10-2004, 14:34
| i think we can make a country potential open with this. this is not only looking last five year. this also says to as something about future. in my opinion there is always a biggest potential for dutch teams to win a cup.
to Aliceag:
i think you did not understand what i mean. you gave 3* to sporting lissbon but they have lower rankings from us. they were 4 or 5 years in EC for last five years. if you look for five years beşiktaş must take 3*(i know this is not very important thing, but i want to say it is wrong).
let's look
2000-2001
3 win 1 draw in qualification round(these are not took care for club rankings):3.5 points
1 win 1 draw in CL, 1 bonus for CL: 4
Total:7.5
2001-2002:
was not there
2002-2003:
4 win 3 draw in UC, 1 bonus because of quarter final
total:12 points
2003-2004:
1 bonus for CL 2 wins 1 draw:6 points
2004-2005:
up to now 1 win 1 draw 3 points
total:28.5
and you give olimpiakos 3* but they had 28 points. they upper than us because there is no point from QR(so all points count for club rankings)
and sporting lisbon they were last 5 years in EC and collect 18 points but you gave 3*..
so this is i have look..
cheers |
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Author: sr_sofisticacao
Date: 27-10-2004, 01:21
| Without looking to numbers and just saying by my memories of what eurocups have been since the beggining, I would say that France isn't a big 5.
Holland is 5th, Portugal is 6th, France and Belgium struggle for the 7th place.
Greece, Turkey and Russia are next.
What did France win? The same cups as Portugal the last 2 years?
Of course that if you are speaking of the current year, I would refer you to the ranking present in this same internet site that puts Portugal as the best non top 5. And France ahead of all those you and I spoke about.
If you want to talk about the last 15 years (for instance), I would put France ahead of Portugal, Holland, etc, because it had constant better overall results (though not cup wins) and the 6th would be Holland again for the same reason (better overall results).
How can I say what are better overall results? I agree with some people that posted in this thread: give points for stages reached over the years. But just count the best 4 teams of each country each year as it would be unfair to those who don't have more than those participating to count all the results.
You will see that I probably had it right without doing any maths... |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 27-10-2004, 09:02
| The intention of this thread was also to see who has the best 5th and 6th teams. Because with 4 teasm a country can get 6-8th place, but then loose that place again becasue of theses 5th and 6th teams.
So... divide it through total of teams that played...oh, no that is the current Uefa coefficient. |
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Author: mzok
Date: 28-10-2004, 14:29
| sr sofisticao: You must have a short memory if you think Greece & Turkey are ranked highly "since the beginning". It is only in the last 10 or so years that their football has improved.
Only 1 of each of those countries ever reached a European final of course, compared to 8 of Scotland and several from Hungary, Czech. Austria etc. Only a few clubs from Turkey & Greece have even reached semi finals, compared to many from Hungary, Austria & Scotland.
There is an all-time table of points gained in Europe here All time table
The top 9 countries all-time in order are
GER SPA ITA ENG FRA NED BEL POR SCO
Everyone else is far, far behind.
Anyway the original post is too subjective for my liking. What's wrong with the coefficients? Who could deny Portugal is the best non G5 nowadays? |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 28-10-2004, 14:45
| I guess this site you refer to is an answer to all questions. It contains a list for last 5, 10, 20 years and for all-time.
Still other questions arise: If you look at at the all time lists:
Nehterlands have more teams in top 20 (3!) than France (0!), but the number of points gained by France is higher than by the Netherlands. |
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Author: thrasher
Date: 29-10-2004, 01:25
| I think the SIXTH COUNTRY differs year by year. Holland did pretty well. Now Portugal does pretty good. Maybe Greece... |
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Author: ignjat63
Date: 29-10-2004, 07:25
| As usuall, the main question is about ranking criteria applied. Then everything else follows. Here are some thoughts on ranking methods.
As everybody knows, there are two types of competitions- league type and knock-out (cup) type. They are essentially different and should be ranked by totally different methods. In a league competition important things are number of wins, draws and losses, goals scored, goals received, points won and the like. But in a knock-out competition these things are totally unimportant and, worse, can give a wrong picture. The site you are refering to gives a perfect example. Overall, the Dutch have won more cups and reached higher stages more but France is placed above them. That is because the wrong criteria was used.
Also in club ranking. My club Red Star Belgrade is ranked 15th overall by method of adding up points. But actually should be ranked lower than that. The right way to find best non G5 country, I think, is to count numbers of stages reached (not too difficult for a short 5 year period even by hand) and simply compare. |
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Author: janss
Date: 26-11-2004, 15:46
| The Netherlands are 7th now on the uefa ranking. Az, PSV and Heerenveen won their matches, and now greece and the netherlands have changed positions |
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Author: dark_green
Date: 29-11-2004, 20:08
| Congratulations to Netherlands. But as a greek, I must say I feel proud that we had achieved to be ranked above the country of 6 champions leagues (and of many cup winners cups and uefas) for more than 2 years. |
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Author: Ricardo
Date: 30-11-2004, 11:20
| And as a Dutchman I feel proud to now stand above the European Champion. The year is not over yet and both Holland and Greece have 3 strong teams left. I don't know yet who will be above whom at the end of the year. |
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Author: seso
Date: 02-12-2004, 11:59
| Aaahhhhh, so nice!!! The noble rivarly!!! |
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Author: seso
Date: 02-12-2004, 12:01
| Aaahhhhh, so nice!!! The noble rivarly!!! |
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