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Author: jlp
Date: 29-09-2004, 17:00

I wonder why some clubs are rich and strong and others aren't. Let's look at Bayern Munchen. It's a phenomenon that in such strong league one team buy key-players from its rivals. Bayern bought Ballack, Ze Roberto and Lucio from Leverkusen and Frings from Dortmund. This means that Bayern have much more resources that any other German club. What are the reasons?
Tradition?
More supporters? (Dortmund and Schalke have more I think)
Rich sponsor? (What about Bayer, isn't it rich enough?)
Better management?

Please give some examples from your countries!

Re: How to build a strong club?
Author: jlp Date: 29-09-2004, 17:15	I provide some examples from Poland The richest clubs are: Wisla because of (tradition, rich sponsor) Legia (tradition, big city) Groclin (wealthy sponsor-bussinessman, despite being located in a quite small town) Amica (rich sponsor-company, despite being located in small town)

Author: ralfinho
Date: 30-09-2004, 00:34

Well, jlp, as an old Bayern supporter I may tell you something to this topic.
First of all, Bayern has more resources that any other German club, but not much more. Especially the budgets of Dortmund (unregarded their current economic problems), Leverkusen and Schalke are not so much smaller that the Bayern one.

Leverkusen reinvested the transfer fees they got in 2002 from Bayern for Ballack (6 mio €) and Ze Roberto (9.5 mio). They signed Franca (8.5 mio.), Simak (6 mio.), Juan (3.5 mio.)and others (together 8 mio.). You see, they spended more than they got.
In 2004, Bayer (the company) reduced the sponsorship amounts, so only minor reinvestments for Lucio (12 mio.) were possible. But they managed to sign Roque Junior from Milan free of transfer fees.

Dortmund signed between 1999 and 2002 several players for huge transfer fees (Amoroso, Rosicky, Kehl, Koller, Ewerthon and many others), thus spending much more than Bayern in these years. But this led to the current problems.

To your question:
The reasons for the higher budget of Bayern (in long term view) are several ones:
- high attendances (as you say, not so high as Dortmund and Schalke, but higher than any others)
- the by far highest merchandising revenues in Germany (but small in comparison to Real or ManU)
- the highest CL revenues from UEFA, especially in the years 98/99 - 01/02
- the highest sponsoring revenues which is connected with the continuous presence in the CL.

Furthermore, many German clubs had longer successful periods (Moenchengladbach in the 70's, Hamburg in the 80's, Bremen in the late 80's and early 90's, Dortmund in the 90's). But there is only one club in Germany that is continuously successful for 30 years now.

This and the always solid management (which is unseparably connected with the work of Uli Hoeness)
is the base for the economic succes of Bayern.

Author: anita
Date: 30-09-2004, 00:59

Yes, ralfinho, when it comes to the real big clubs, money talks loudest. But continuity and good management are ingredients as well.

Rosenborg, a small club in this context, have earned all their surplus money by participating in CL. Rosenborg is in a unique position in The Nordic countries, with maybe 30-40 mill € in the bank.

Critics may say that well, the money, thats because they have participated in CL. Yes, but how did they get there, and how did they 'stay' there. 10 of 11 last years in CL group stage!!

Long time planning, continuity and co-operation on all levels in the club. There are just a handful of clubs in Europe that can stay on high international level with money alone.

Author: ignjat63
Date: 30-09-2004, 07:00

Untill early nineties, my favourite club Red Star Belgrade had a continuity of good results in Europe and was best Yugoslav club. The key element there was (no big money in them days) that it was first Yugoslav team to have good results in Europe (a semifinal and a quarterfinal in late fifties and the same in early sixties) and some of the best Yugoslav players wanted to play football for this club. So for the next few decades it had good results but never actually won anything. Then in 1986 the club managers made a sort of 5 year plan to win the champion’s cup and, amazingly enough they did it. So, like Anita says, it has to be everything. It’s interesting to note that 1991 team was so young (21-26 almost all of them). Its president Dzajic (best Red Star footballer ever) said they thought they could “rule Europe” for a few years. But, unfortunately we know what happened next.
These days Partisan is better because it is better organised and has more sponsor money. Red Star wanted to stay clean (Dzajic says) from mafia and dirty politics. Being Red Star fan I choose to believe him.

Author: Ricardo
Date: 30-09-2004, 09:23

I think that besides money, the organisation is important and how people all over the world look at the club. A Big 'name' opens doors for (financial) interesting tournaments, merchandising, etc. But also the better players will like to play there. In HOlland if you ask a kid if he wnats to play for Ajax he says 'yes' immedatly, whil playing for FC Den Bosch will much less appealing. If you talk about foreign players, a 'name' is even more important!.
So on 1 side it's the money, but also orgnisation (scouting, youth) and being a 'name'.
It will be hard to get a 'name': Chelsea is working on it now with big money and winning, but if in 5 years Abramovic is gone and Chelsea is in second division, this period will be 'forgotten'

Author: aris63
Date: 30-09-2004, 09:28

MONEY IS THE PARAMOUNT IN ORDER TO MAKE A CLUB GREAT THEN SUPPORTERS OWN STADIUM AND COACH WE HAVE IT ALL THESE THIS YEAR AND WE WILL MAKE EUROPE TO LEARN SOMETHING MORE ABOUT US

Olympiakos have great players who can make something good this year and the most important coach as we did not had a coach for the last 5 years DUCAN BAJEVITS as for players RIVALDO ZIOVANNI DJORTJEVITS GEORGATOS NIKOPOLIDIS STOLTIDIS and a new stadioum which we did not had ove the last years.

Author: anita
Date: 30-09-2004, 12:04

I think especially the ability to pick the right coach is imperative. Of course, you can't pick coaches like Otto Rehagel everywhere, but when a club change manager/coach every other month, there are something fundamentally wrong in the (re)search prosess.

When the coach get fired after two weeks (Real Madrid), the club are in deep crisis.

And please, aris, don't use capital letters ALL THE TIME

Author: aydinfatih
Date: 30-09-2004, 13:37

it is importan to have strong many sources, tradition, and supporters... if you have this three thing, you may live temporarily failure, but you will get out from this with a good management.

but for contunity achievment, the important think is good management to get good coach, good players..

but we also must know this..there is no formula to be success in football.. in football 2 plus 2 is not always 4..sometimes 3, sometimes 5, sometimes 0..

for example: my team beţiktaţ, for this we get one of best coach in the world: vicente del bosque, for turkey vey very good players john carew(roma), juan fran(celta), tayfun(espanyol), okan buruk(internazionale) and also a few another best players in turkey..but we get only one win, 3 loss, 3 draw in first 7 match..

also fenerbahçe: they are the richest club in turkey..but because of bad management they did not get big success in last 20 years..yes they are getting champion in turkey..but beţiktaţ and galatasaray have better result in turkey and european cups..

as a result:background, supporters, many and for contunity achievement good management..

Author: anita
Date: 30-09-2004, 14:12

I follow Besiktas closely, since John Carew is playing there (National team player for Norway). The problem with a lot of Turkish clubs are their short-sighted goals. They want success, and they want it NOW!!

Besiktas buying lot of class players, doing lousy in League so far, and immediate crisis. Del Bosque is fired tonite if they screw up against Bodo. Sometimes that is the solution, but as mentioned, lot of Turkish ambitious clubs have short-sighted plans, involving short-sighted economy as well. Many players are reluctant to play for Turkish clubs, because suddenly the money faucets are closed, because the owners/sponsors have no patience.

Re: How to build a strong club?
Author: aydinfatih Date: 30-09-2004, 14:29	anita you are right definetely, all turkish teams are want daily success, not contunity success, so if you be in a short-term failure, you may be send. such last year mircea lucescu was send (i did not want) ....i also do not want to be send del bosque, because i know his quality...but i also know in turkey peoaple have not patient.. i wish we will continue with bosque

Author: Skyer
Date: 01-10-2004, 00:05

I think, there are 3 BIG clubs in Europe. All the others are much lower. These clubs are Manchester, Real and Barcelona. Their management is great, revenues from TV broadcast - big, money from T-shirts and stadium matches - good. They really know how to use money to make it more.

In Russia now the key is money. You see how CSKA participate in CL. The reason of success - purchased great players. A lot of people in Russia think, that Valery Gazzaev, coach of CSKA - is very bad coach. I don't agree with them, but even now, when CSKA participates well, nobody is surprised and nobody say "Gazzaev has made great work!" - because everybody expected victories, remembering how much money is spent.

The next season(or next-next) may be the season of Spartak. Because about 25-30 mils were spent on new players, including Kavenagi, Jiranek, Rodriges, Vidic...

So, Russian recipe is the money from rich people.

Author: anita
Date: 01-10-2004, 02:01

You must be joking, Skyer. Real Madrid have debts far over the chimney, the town and the state and the banks have saved them from bankrupcy. They owe several million Euros. They sold their stadium to the town for a ridiculous overprize. And they sack managers every fortnight. They are buying flashy players like Berlusconi did in Milan in early nineties, spending money like drunken sailors. And their defence formation is still rotten. I could continue......

Author: Dinamo-Zagreb
Date: 01-10-2004, 09:14

My team is probably richest club on the Balkans (that does not include Greece nor Turkey

) among Partizan. We have great sponsor (Siemens) but unfortunately, like Real Madrid/Besiktas, our team, composed out of best young players Croatia can offer right now, we play relatively lousy football.

To me, club needs to have correct financial status, big fan board (and that means full stadium ALWAYS) and not needing to worry very much on merchandise like Real. We see what is happening to them.

Re: How to build a strong club?
Author: ralfinho Date: 02-10-2004, 15:28	anita, your words concerning the management of Real could have been written by me. As you say, "continuity and good management are ingredients as well." So, Rosenborg is the FC Bayern of Norway and Rune Bratseth is the Uli Hoeness of Norway. If you prefer, also the other way round ...