Forum

xml	No replies possible in the archive

Author: higgins147
Date: 30-07-2004, 15:45

Hi all,,

Sorry if this was asked before but ive done a search and cant find it anywhere..

I have a question about the calculation of the team coefficient..
It might be best i give an example and that is the Irish coefficient of 1.044 for this year was used for my team shelbourne. I know that teams from that country below the mark take the country coefficient.

But is it possible to see how close to going above the country coefficient your team is?

What I want to know is are shelbourne close to going over the irish coefficient? because i know Bohemians from Ireland used their own coefficient in the 1st QR of the Champions league last year but shels used the Irish total this year?

We are borderline on the seeded unseeded so it could make a difference

Thanks

Re: team coefficient
Author: george Date: 30-07-2004, 15:53	If shelbourne kick out Hajduk then will play with Deportivo. Probably shelbourne will loose and then will go to UEFA Cup. Any good result at UEFA Cup will be team's Coefficient

Author: EarlofBug
Date: 30-07-2004, 16:25

Hi higgins,
as I understand, the country coefficient is taken for clubs which do not have points from the last 5 years.
For example, Terek grozny of Russia are playing for the first time in Europe, so their coefficient is Russia coefficient.
If a club has a history in Europe in the last 5 years, it's achievements for a club counts, and the club's total coefficient = country coefficient + club's coefficient (from last 5 years).

What I don't know, and would like to know, is when the points are taken into calculation. Is s club's coefficient for this year 04/05 is
For Example: We have two clubs. In the start of season, club1 has a coefficient of 0, and club2 has a coefficient of 1.5.
club1 starts in CL-QR1, and club2 starts in CL-QR3.
club1 wins QR1 and QR2, and gets 2 points to the coefficient.
If the seedings are made by the coefficient in the start of the season, than club2 is seeded higher than club1 in QR3.
But if the coefficient can change at any time through the season, than club1 can climb above club2.
I think that a club's coefficient should remain the same through the season, and the changes should take place only in the start of each season. A good time is in the breaks of the European competitions, like in June.

Re: team coefficient
Author: george Date: 30-07-2004, 16:37	To EarlofBug A club must have history for the past 5 years at least in Group Stage for C.L. or in Round 1 at UEFA Cup to gets its own coefficient. Otherwise a club has only its country's coefficient. For 04/05 the total coefficient for a club is : coefficient 99/00 + coefficient 00/01 + coefficient 01/02 + coefficient 02/03 + coefficient 03/04

Author: Todor
Date: 30-07-2004, 16:44

A club coefficient is the sum of the points the team has accumulated for the last 5 years + 0.33 of the country's coefficient.The team accumulates points and bonuses only in the main draw (results from the preliminaries don't count) , so if Shelborn haven't reached beyond the preliminaries in the last 5 year , their coefficient will be 0 + 0.33 of Ireland's coefficient. Bohemians had probably taken some points from the main draw so their coefficient was 0.33 of Ireland's coefficient + the points they had gathered.

Author: duncshine
Date: 30-07-2004, 16:45

OK, here's how it works

Each team's coefficient is calculated as the points it has earned over the past five seasons, plus 33% of its country's coefficient.

Matches in qualifying rounds of European competition earn half-points for the country, but none for the individual club. (EG: A win in qualifying adds 1 point to the country's total, while a draw adds half a point).

Matches from Round 1 onwards in European competition earn full points for both club and country.

If you take Bohemians as an example, they automatically get 33% of Ireland's total for the last five years. However, because they reached Round 1 of the UEFA Cup, and won their away game against Kaiserslautern 1-0, in 2000-2001, they picked up an extra two points of their own.

So Bohemians coefficient is 3.044 against the Irish minimum of 1.044.

Now, look at Shelbourne. They have not picked up any points from Round One onwards since a draw against Vasas Budapest in Autumn 1971, clearly more than five years ago.

As such, they have no additional points of their own and therefore take Ireland's minimum of 1.044 this season.

To gain points for themselves this year, they must overcome Hajduk in the second leg. This will then mean that they either enter the Group Stage of CL by beating Deportivo (in which case they get three bonus points plus any points they pick up during the group stages); or they will enter the UEFA Cup in R1, where any draw or win will earn them points.

Phew, that was long-winded. The gist is that they need to get a win or draw in Round 1 to break free from the Irish minimum coefficient.

Cheers

Dunc

Author: higgins147
Date: 30-07-2004, 18:45

Thanks for the replies and especially Duncshine...

thats cleared it up and like you all say shelbourne have not got into a proper round as you call it..

It strikes me as a little unfair as bohemians only won through 1 Qualifying round in UEFA cup then got into 1st round proper but for Shels to start to earn points (assuming they win our league again this year) we need to win through 2 rounds against better teams??

Im not sure why they dont use the half points from qualifying rounds for teams??

Looks like shels will be stuck with Irish coefficient and be unseeded again next year...
Its tough at the bottom lads!! But we'll keep trying

Author: anita
Date: 30-07-2004, 19:59

Indeed, higgins, it's the same problem as in real life. If you've got a lot of money, it's easy to gain more. Some teams from weaker countries (Rosenborg, Dinamo Kiev) have managed to get out of that circle, but they have needed some help from the other teams in country to raise the all-over co-efficient.

Another example is Sweden, where the teams are so even that they change in EC almost every year.But they have UEFA to help them with seeding, and then we'll see how far they can go on that help.

Longford did not contribute much this year.

Author: mzok
Date: 30-07-2004, 20:04

Eventually instead of complaining about coefficients, Irish clubs have to start WINNING SOME MATCHES.

I am not talking about beating teams from higher ranked nations like Bulgaria or Sweden or something, I am just asking that you take points from Lichtenstein, Moldova & Estonia. If they can't even beat equally ranked clubs then they don't deserve to be higher up.

It is easy to rise up the rankings with only a small improvement.

Author: duncshine
Date: 31-07-2004, 11:16

I agree with Higgins on this one.

In the last five years, Shelbourne have had a win and a draw against Sloga Skopje, a draw against Rosenborg, a draw against Hibernians and two draws against Reykjavik. OK, that's not going to frighten the big boys, but they have earned 3.5 points for Ireland.

Now look at Longford. In the same period they have contributed just 0.5 points to Ireland with a draw against FC Lovech of Bulgaria.

Clearly Shelbourne's record is better than Longford's, so it still seems daft to me that UEFA cannot find a way to differentiate between them.

I would award the clubs half points for UC and CL qualifiers. I haven't checked the maths, but I think it would make the seedings in the qualifiers far more realistic.

Cheers

Dunc

Author: anita
Date: 31-07-2004, 11:58

I too think it would be more fair if they got individual points in qualification rounds as well, but it would hardly help Irish teams to a better ranking. Remember that comparable teams like Vaduz and Levadia will also play by those rules and improve their ranking (this year on behalf of couple of Irish teams), as mzok correctly emphasizes.

But there are another side of this. If a country, say IRL or NIR have teams that qualify for EC year after year, they will maybe accumulate more points than e.g. Swedish or Norwegian teams(not Rosenborg), that changes teams almost every year in EC. And if an Irish team is seeded and a Swedish team is unseeded because of this, well, that doesn't give the right picture, does it?

Author: higgins147
Date: 31-07-2004, 16:29

I think most of you missed my point...

I understand shelbourne are no big shots in europe but in the same season Bohemians from Ireland got into the UEFA Cup and Shelbourne got into the Champions league..

I think it was 2000?, Anyway They both made it through 1 round that year.

In the second round bohs were in the so called 1sr round proper and had the right to earn points for their individual coefficient..

Shelbourne on the other hand only got into the 2nd QR of the champions league and didnt have the chance to earn points for themselves?

The following year Bohs were champions of ireland and shels 2nd and bohs were seeded in CL 1st QR due to the points they earned the year before..

I am just making the point that its easier to get points in UEFA then CL ??
That doesnt seem fair

Author: anita
Date: 01-08-2004, 14:06

Indeed, higgins147, these are solutions which seem very unfair.

First that an elimination in CLQR2 will stop further play for the best team from the country (I am really sweating on behalf of Rosenborg on Wednesday).

Secondly that UEFA-cup may give more points for a team. Again example with Rosenborg, last season nine points in UEFA-cup after being eliminated in CLQR3. With all respect for my team, if you take away those two bonus points, I don't think that Rosenborg could have gained seven points in CL Group Stage (Two for win, one for draw).

So, as I have written before; CL Group Stage for the money, UEFA cup for the (ranking) points. UEFA have tried to do something about it by giving three bonus points for CL and one for CL 1/8-final, but on the other hand they have given good teams that qualify for UEFA-cup Group play, plenty (four) of possibilities to gain points against presumably weaker teams than the teams eventually would have met in CL Group.

Anyway, hope Shels can detonate a bomb on Wednesday