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| 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 22-07-2004, 11:43 | 13 Poland 18.500 4/ 4 14 Switzerland 18.250 4/ 4 15 Israel 18.249 4/ 4 --------------------------------------- 16 Austria 17.250 4/ 4 17 Serbia-Mont. 16.999 4/ 4 18 Ukraine 16.950 5/ 5 19 Norway 16.700 4/ 4 20 Bulgaria 16.165 4/ 4 21 Denmark 15.700 3/ 3 I don't know why, but somehow I have a feeling that Israel and Switzerland will drop below 15-th place after this season is over. Especially if Red Star eliminate Young Boys. Ukraine seemed like favourite before fair-play draw, but now their score is divide by 5 instead of 4. It will be very interesting to see who would take 15-th spot. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: cezh
Date: 22-07-2004, 11:54 | it is very tight there 13th poland - 18,500 is closer to 25th hungary - 12,498 than to 12th czech rep - 25,075 everything could happen... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Kronsky
Date: 22-07-2004, 16:19 | I would think that Serbia-Montenegro and Ukraina will take 13th and 14th place, then Pland and Austria fighting for 15th place. Just a couple of weeks ago, I was sure that the Polish teams, specially Legia Warszwa and Wisla Krakow, will get some points in EC. Then, as every year in Polish fotball, some week before EC adventure starts, problems ariase. For Legia, if they loose striker Wlodarczyk, it will be a catastrof. They will loose half of their attac power. For Wisla then, in their two last friendly matches they collected totally 8 goals from french teams (4-4 and 1-4)having defence and middle formation that on the paper is better than in the Polish national team. And Amica did not reinforce by any player, loosing their best players to Wisla and Legia. Forth team, Lech Poznan is still to week to make it through R1. So the year that I hoped polish teams to collect at least 6 points could finish really bad...well, maybee not so bad as it could be for swedish or norwegians though...  Regards Kronsky |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 23-07-2004, 09:04 | I expect Partizan and Red Star to play in the UEFA groups, but Banatski Dvor will loose both games (they are in the 2-nd league). Zeleznik was supposed to be seeded, but due to regional groupings it is now unseeded. Who gives right to UEFA to do this? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 23-07-2004, 13:10 | Friendly match in Austria played yesterday. Zeleznik-Zilina 5:1 !!! It really wouldn't be fair iz Zeleznik is not seeded in UEFA cup (2-nd qualifying round) |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 23-07-2004, 13:52 | Seeding in Central Europe is not fair, and friendlies are not countable. Bottom Norwegian team Stabaek beat top danish team Brondby 4-2 in Denmark in friendly couple of days ago. I don't draw any conclusions on friendlies. To topic. Problem with Ukraine is their five teams. And Serbias fight for 15th place may be ruined in CLQR2. Young Boys was not wanted team. Israel has a couple of unmerited teams, and according to Israeli contributors here, they have low expectations for 15th place. Norway should fall, but I said that last year as well... Bulgaria, Denmark (three teams, but..?) and Russia is just too far behind. So then we are left with Poland, Austria and Serbia/Switzerland. I reckon Poland will fix their place inside the 15. Obviously the matches between Young Boys and Red Star may prove vital. And remember, Serbia need (with four teams) to take five points more than Israel and Switzerland (two for win, one for draw), so my humble guess is Poland (13), Switzerland and Austria (14-15). |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 23-07-2004, 14:08 | Red Star - Young Boys is crucial game for Serbia. If Red Star does not eliminate 'the boys', then Serbia has no chance of entering Top 15. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 23-07-2004, 14:39 | Yes manecar, losing Young Boys will hardly affect Switzerland as much as if Serbia loses Red Star. The same "exitement" goes for Brьgge vs Plovdiv. Plovdiv out of the cup will probably destroy Bulgarias chances of advancing on the ranking, but I reckon them as small anyway. But if Brьgge is "fired", Belgium may say bye-bye to 10th place and will probably be passed by Turkey and Czech Republic as well. And next year fall down to the "Polish group". |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Nick
Date: 23-07-2004, 15:59 | As for Bulgaria: I don't have much hope in Loko Plovdiv against Brugge but i also don't think that their elimination will ruin much. All 3 UEFA Cup teams are seeded in QR2 and Levski will be seeded in R1. Both CSKA and Litrex have the potential to qualify for the group stage if they don't draw a spanish or italian team, so Bulgaria may as well end up with 2 or 3 teams in the UC Group stage. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 24-07-2004, 01:52 | I am old and lazy, Nick. Thats what I meant. thx |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 26-07-2004, 22:59 | Don`t underrate bulgarian teams.CSKA and Litex have realy good teams and if Lolomotiv kick out Bruge... expect the unexpected  |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Malick
Date: 27-07-2004, 07:54 | I remember last year games in QR2 between Rapid Bukarest and Anderlecht. Rapid was almost in QR3 after first half of second leg winning 2:0. It ended 2:3 for Anderlecht but its clear that on the turn of July and August before local league starts is not good time for Belgian teams (among others) The same Anderlecht destroyed our polish side Wisla in QR3, winning with ease in both games. The same problems had in QR2 Partizan so lets wait and see, everything is possible... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: moesli
Date: 27-07-2004, 16:42 | I'm from Belgium and I can asure you that both Brugge and Anderlecht will easily qualify for the first round of the CL. Brugge has won confidently this weekend from Auxerre with 3 to 1. And Auxerre is a much better team than Plovdiv. So no problems. I predict that Belgium will not only hold on to the 10th place but will battle to take the 9th, especially if Racing Genk wins in the Intertoto cup. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: seol
Date: 27-07-2004, 16:45 | from Bel too, but don't be too optimistic; Genk winning intertoto is not necessarily positive, it could even cost us some points, if they have bad luck in draw, although they will be seeded |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 27-07-2004, 20:42 | I think that this year will be probably our(Bulgaria's) best one!Levski will defenetly do very well in the Uefa Cup as we will surely qualify for the group stages not only becuase this year is probably our best one,after what we didi in the friendlies in Austria I'm big optimist,we are also seded in the 2nd qualifying round and in the 1st round of the UC!In the group stages i think that we have really good chances if we don't get drawn with teams from italy and england! About CSKA they signed some really good players who might not be fameous but they have really good potential and talent (Ayanda(Senegal),Zabavnik(Slovakia,NT),Caha(Hun).Also I saw that all the players were giving everything in the games,siomething which was missing the past 10 years probably!About Litex they are always in a good form and they can surprise any team! Lokomotiv Plovdiv really shocked me after they won the Championship this year!I think that they deserved after they showed playing style whivh is not so famous in bulgaria(running all the time, players giving everything they have and strong discipline)!I really think that they can do really well against Brugge and why not eliminate them!if they get a draw or lose with one goal,Lokomotiv will have an advantage for the game in Burgas,because they always play fantastic in Bulgaria! I think that we will move 5 places and be 15th at the end of the season! |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: maymunata
Date: 27-07-2004, 22:01 | Sorry, LefskiFan, but, although i'm from BG too, I don't see the things so optimistic as you. Loko needs extraluck to go past Brugge (I think that when they lose the first match, they will lose the 2nd game too). We, in Bulgaria, have had very big hopes in the past decade, but don't forget what happened. Litex - Spartak Moscow, Litex - Widzew Lodz, Levski - Besiktas, Levski - Galatasaray, Lewski - Dinamo Kiev, CSKA - Galatasaray. I remember that before those games all the players, coaches, fans, media were telling that we had real chance, but the reality was not on our side, and we lost bitterly all those matches (and deservely, with poor performance). I predict 3-0, 4-1 win for Brugge tomorow, if something extraordinary doesn't appear. I wish that our country will remain in top 21, the 15th place is an illusion. САМО ЦСКА! |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 27-07-2004, 22:23 | Ok I guess u didn't get right what i said!I wanted to say that Loko Plovdiv is a really good team,and Brugge is much bigger than Lokomotiv!I know that it will be really hared for them especially in Belgium, but IF Loko gets a draw or loses with 1 goal difference,they will have very good chances!I never said that it will be easy for them and that they will win witha big score!Loko will only eliminate brugge ig they play not at 100% but at 110%!!!!They haver to give everything they can in both games,and after I heard the player i think that they will try to do it! About Levski-galata,Levski-Besiktas,if u remnember well the games ended galata-levski-2:1 Levski-galata-1:1 Besiktas-Levski-1:0 Levski-Besiktas-1:1 If u look closer,and especially if u have seen the games Levski needed 1 goal aganst galata and Besiktas to go at least to extra time!And if u remember all 4 matches the referee didn't give us at least 1 peanalty in Sofia against galata and Besiktas!And as u know well we had French referee so i guess that explains everithyng!For those who doesn't know what i mean,the French hate the Bulgarians since 1993 when we beat them in France 2:1 and because of us they didn't qualify for USA'94! So all i'm trying to say is that we always needed just a small piece of luck and Levski could've been in 2 Champions Leagues up till now! The thing u said that the 15th place is an illusion,how can u sai that when every year we get a t least a 4.000 coefficient and we need just 2 and a half for the 15the place!Please don't be such a pesimist |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: maymunata
Date: 27-07-2004, 23:14 | I remember quite well all those games. Levski played very badly indeed in all two games against Besiktas, very bravely in Istanbul against Galatasaray, but at the same time very ugly in Sofia. There wasn't even one minute in all those matches, when u get the feeling that they could progress. The referee Colombo didn't influenced the score against Galata in Sofia at all. The blues just hadn't deserved to go through with that lack of ideas on the field. And yes, CSKA was a total disaster last year, not just against Galata, but with Piunik and (not so but) with Torpedo Moscow too. Let's see: Loko gets 0.5 pts, Levski gets 7pts, CSKA and Liteks get 4pts each (i'm very optimistic here). So about 4.000 coeff. again (at a max). But do you think that the other will make 1.5? We're closer to 23d than 15th place. It's obvious. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: LevskiFan
Date: 27-07-2004, 23:51 | Ok it seems that we will never meet our opinions!just lets wait and see what will happen!My opinion is that Levski,CSKA will make it to the group stages about Litex I'm not so sure.Loko,I can't say about them,probably after tomorrow things will get more clear!I predict that this year we will get a coefficient around 5.000! |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 28-07-2004, 07:47 | Loko - Brugge in Bourgas??? Why? Isn't Loko from Plovdiv? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Nick
Date: 28-07-2004, 09:15 | Loko is from Plovdiv but there is no UEFA licensed stadium in Plovdiv. So they will play in Bourgas in the Naftex Stadium. They chose it because they think that many Loko fans will be at the seaside at this time and will support the team. Also they hope that many people from Bourgas will also support them. Other alternatives were Sofia and Lovetch. These are the only cities (together with Bourgas) with stadiums with international licenses. Lovetch is too far away and Sofia is not really an alternative because its highly unlikely that local fans will support Loko. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 28-07-2004, 13:31 | So let`s think about it: 15.Switzerland - Young Boys vs Red Star Belgrade.I think that it will be very DIFFICULT for Young Boys to win. - FC Basel - seeded in 3rd Qualifying Round but the team is not something special - Servette - seeded in Round 1 and may be they will be in the groups - FC Wil - 0 points coefficient 4.375 in 00/01 will be deleted and the new one will be much lower so i think that 21-th place will be a success 16.Austria -Grazer AK Unseeded in 3rd Qualifying Round ,two loses and uefa cup and may be 1 win and a draw at all -Rapid Wien and Austria Wien may be a good performence but nothing special -SV Pasching - no way coefficient 7.750 in 00/01 and may be Austria will be after 21-th place to be continue |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 28-07-2004, 13:54 | 17.Ukraine *5 teams* Despite that Ukraine have 5 teams i think that there will be no problem for Ukraine to take 15-th place and may be something more 18.Serbia-Montenegro - Red Star Belgrade - if Red Star have a chance they can enter in Champions League groups,if not i think that Uefa cup group is something real for them -Partizan Belgrade - Seeded in Round 1 so they are sure for Group stage (the same thing like Red Star) -if Zeleznik Belgrade and Buducnost Banatski Dvor don`t loose 2 times i think that Serbia have a good chance for 15-th place to be continue... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 28-07-2004, 13:55 | As mentioned before, Bulgaria may improve their ranking this year, and it's ambitious to go for 15th place. But rather unlikely. Remember that Bulgaria need 6.5 (2.085 in coefficient) points MORE than Switzerland and Israel to grab the 15th place. But - if those three countries repeat themselves from last season, Bulgaria will pass the other two. But - leaving Poland out of it - you have to pass some other countries with ambitions. And I think Lok-Plovdiv must contribute with more than 1-2 points to see that 15th-place-dream come through. But.......... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 28-07-2004, 14:03 | 19.Norway -Rosenborg - they are almost sure for Champions League goupe stage BUT if they play against Benfica,Shakhtar Donetsk,Trabzonspor and CSKA Moscow who are unseeded in 3rd Qualifying Round the things may go wrong and if Rosenborg make a wrong step Norwey is OUT -Stabжk IF - no problem in 2nd Qualifying Round but at 1 round ...real problem -Odd Grenland and Bodш/Glimt :the same thing like Stabжk IF At the end of the year i think that the coefficient will be ...4.833 |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 28-07-2004, 14:27 | 20.And nooooow Bulgaria (i`m from Bulgaria) -Lokomotive(Plovdiv) vs Bruge: crucial for bulgarian football becouse if Loko win they will be seeded in 3rd Qualifying Round and ... BUT if they loose it will be very hard for Bulgaria to stay in 20-th place becouse we have 4 teams this year.My heart say that Loko will win but my brain ...no way -Levski (Sofia) - seeded in 2nd Qualifying Round and in 1 round so may be it will be a good performence -CSKA (Sofia) - My favorite team!We will win UEFA cup -Litex - realy good team but with no such a big experience in uefa.Seeded in 2nd Qualifying Round ,unseeded in 1 round...May be groupe stage may be not I have no idea. I`m tired so at the end i`ll say that: Switzerland and Austria are out of the battle Ukraine will take 15-th place may be something more Serbia,Norway,Bulgaria and Denmark will try to do something but at the end of the year the places will be almost the same. AND don`t forget Russia.100% Russia will be between 13-15 place. THAT`S MY OPINION FOR THE 15-TH PLACE BATTLE !!! |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Sturmy
Date: 28-07-2004, 14:45 | I can't believe it, Austria has still a chance for the 15th place, although our clubs play worse and worse every year? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Sturmy
Date: 28-07-2004, 14:46 | @Zuberbuler Have a nice time with your new "star goalie" Thomas Mandl! :D |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 29-07-2004, 09:16 | After YB-Crvena Zvezda 2:2, I think that Switzerland is definitely out of top 15. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 29-07-2004, 10:14 | Hi Zuberbuler Don't know your way to conclude with Russia among the 15. They are 10.5 points behind 15th place, CSKA Moskva unseeded in CLQR3, Terek (1st division) and Rubin Kazan (not exactly a top team this season) unseeded in UCQR2 (only Serbias Buducnost unseeded among Russias opponents for 15th place), and CSKA Moskva (if not CL) and Zenith unseeded in UCR1. Compared to Switzerland, where both Basel(if not CL)and Servette are seeded in UCR1. And Young Boys is still not out of it. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 29-07-2004, 10:40 | anita How is that 10.5 points? 2.5 points |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: mzok
Date: 29-07-2004, 10:42 | 10.5 points/4 teams ~= 2.5 |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 29-07-2004, 10:47 | Terek's stats btw LOL 1 Terek 23 19 3 1 39-4 60 |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 29-07-2004, 11:08 | Yes, mzok. Just stating it: Russia has now 15.791, Switzerland and Israel have 18.375. Difference 2.584. Multiplied with 4 teams give 10.336, so to pass those countries Russia need 10.5 points MORE (Two for win and one for draw). And Rx, yes,Terek is bulldozering through 1st division and is full of self-confidence. Not an easy target in UCQR2. And Russia may do well this year, but I think 15th place is too ambitious, and my humble question to Zuberbuler was how he calculated that 15th place. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: mzok
Date: 29-07-2004, 11:23 | Half the teams in the Russian 2nd level are called Metallurg, Spartak, Chernomorets, Lokomotiv or Dynamo. There's even an(other) Arsenal. It's confusing enough. I'm supporting Terek. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 29-07-2004, 11:31 | Yes,mzok, you have Metalurgs in Liepaja and Donetsk, and a lot of Dynamos and CSKA's in east-Europe, and by the way, one of the top teams in Argentina is Arsenal. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 29-07-2004, 11:35 | I was tired after writing all of this posts so i`ll explain:all of the teams in Russia have HUGE budget.Owner of the clubs are people like Abramovich and they have no problems with money.I Clubs pay 5-10 million euro for players.And it`s not a big problem for them.I read in a newspaper about transfers in russia and i was amazed but i can`t remember how much maoney they spend for new players.One club was paid around 20 million euro about 3 players i think it was Spartak Moskow or Lokomotiv Moskow.I`m not sure.I don`t know were you from Anita but tell me how much spent for transfers top 5 teams in your country.If you are not from Spain,England and Italy i`m sure that the sum will be less then a half that spend russian teams.And that`s why i think that not this year but the next year will be very "surprising" for the people who underestimate russian clubs. It`s my fault that i don`t explain so i think that russia will be between 13-15 place in the next 2 years(after 2 years -i`m not sure for the expression But everythin about the countries between 15-20 place that i said is for this year |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 29-07-2004, 12:50 | I am from Norway, and I think the richest team Rosenborg twice have paid more than 1 mill Euro for a player. But that's just over 1 mill. One exception. Five years ago they bought John Carew from Valerenga for about 2.5 mill Euro. He was so promising that this was an investment. Rosenborg sold him 1,5 years later to Valencia for 12 mill Euros. Yes, Valerenga got their share as well. No, what I am wondering, Abramovitsj and other Yukos-like billionaires have for some years now put money into e.g. CSKA Moskva, and they were embarrassingly eliminated by Vardar Skopje last season. With a little exception for Lokomotiv we have to go back to Spartak to see Russian teams doing comparatively what their budgets reflect. And they still have to prove it. What do I know, but dos really teams like Terek and Rubin from Kazan budgets in that VIP-class? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 29-07-2004, 13:02 | Terek, Rubin - $10-15 mil There is actually no clubs in Premier league with budgets less than $10 mil |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 29-07-2004, 13:04 | Every beginning is difficult About Terek and Kazan ...They have no problem with money Theirs budgets are huge but the real problem is that they have no experience and that`s why i speak about period of 2 years.The same thing like Chelsea |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: moesli
Date: 29-07-2004, 13:17 | Belgian forward Roussel (RC Genk) is now in negotiation to go to Kazan. There is already an agreement between the 2 clubs. Just the contract for the player himself isn't decided yet. In my opinion, not really a great asset for Kazan. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Malick
Date: 29-07-2004, 14:16 | Polish champion Wisla has a highest budget in Poland of around 6-7 mln $, it looks poorly when to compare with Russian teams. Average teams in Poland has around 2 milion $ but we have quite a few in premier league with only one million. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: manecar
Date: 30-07-2004, 08:05 | View update 13 Poland 18.750 4/ 4 14 Switzerland 18.375 4/ 4 15 Israel 18.374 4/ 4 ---------------------------------------- 16 Ukraine 17.350 5/ 5 17 Austria 17.250 4/ 4 18 Serbia-Mont. 17.124 4/ 4 19 Norway 16.950 4/ 4 20 Bulgaria 16.165 4/ 4 21 Denmark 16.033 3/ 3 |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: EarlofBug
Date: 30-07-2004, 13:39 | Poland is going to remain in 13th place. Switzerland, Israel and Austria are going down. Ukraine and Serbia are going to take the 14th and the 15th places. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rosa
Date: 30-07-2004, 14:03 | I hope you're right |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 30-07-2004, 20:25 | Author: Rx Date: 29-07-2004, 13:02 Terek, Rubin - $10-15 mil "There is actually no clubs in Premier league with budgets less than $10 mil " Не льсти себе. It's false. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 30-07-2004, 20:44 | ss5dgf4sf4 Its true. Just name the team with budget less than $10mil (maybe Amkar, but i dont think so since they are in PL :D). You can even check your site, someone just wrote that out http://www.dynamo.kiev.ua/gb/index.pl |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 11:18 | Рикс: Торпедо, Рубин, Амкар, Ростов, Алания, Шинник, Кубань, Ротор { 10 000 000$. Это мо? субъективное мение, но ты конечноже можешь считать иначе. Сразу говорю - спорить не собираюсь. Богататые клубы? На здоровье, удачных выступлений и дальнейшего процветания. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 11:35 | ss5dgf4sf4 http://www.expert.ru/expert/current/tabs/foottab.shtml Вот тут написано по половине твоих клубов, у другой половины бюджет ровно 10м. Рубин спонсирует президент Татарстана, ты знаешь что у них скуплено пол Африки Бразили и Чехии за прошлый год? У них в команде 3 русских играет всего. У Алании тренер француз - Алан Курбис, контракт с ним на 1 мил в год. Кубань купила в начале сезона Бесчастных и Соломатина, а сейчас еще 5 человек новых. По Ротору и Ростову на вашей гостевой написано. А с Торпедо ты смешные вещи говоришь. Ты знаешь позицию Торпедо? Если бы у них был бюджет меньше 10м, от них бы в межсезонье ничего не осталось :D |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 12:31 | 2 рх Заходил я на тот сайт как то. Я как экономист скажу: грошь цена таким экспертам, мало того, что куча ошибок, так не расписана методология. Я абсолютно уверен, что ни в России , ни в Украине бюджет клуба узнать практически невозможно. Официальные источники - чушь. Через футбольные клубы проходят столько финансовых схем, ты представить себе не можешь. Расчитать бюджет с точностью до миллиона, да ещ? не зная всей подноготной как то проблематично для меня. Поэтому я не буду безаппеляционно утверждать что знаю суммы чьих то бюджетов, но и не склонен доверять левым источникам. Могу лишь утверждать очевидное-высказывание:"В пл нет ни одного клуба с бюджетом менее 10 000 000$ " явно не соответствует действительности. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 12:43 | ss5dgf4sf4 Почему левым? Это все в основном официальные данные президентов клубов. И это совсем не чушь, за лживую информацию и налоговая привлечь может. А раз заявлено официально больше 10 мил, значит так и есть. Ты ж не можешь доказать обратное. Да и по трансферам + зарплата на 40 человек любой может сам посчитать. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 12:57 | рх никак не угомонишься, объясняю, практически все клубы в первую очередь используются для: 1. Отмывания незаконных доходов. 2. Банального воровства из бюджета(заметил сколько спонсоров государственных). 3. Ухода от налогов. Далее, часто игроков покупают(и соответственно владеют правами) не клубы, а отдельные т?мные субъекты. А вс? что указывается в официальных документах это, как бы помягче сказать, искаженные данные, прич?м могут искажаться как в одну так и в другую сторону. Чтоб больше не спорить говорю да, в России подавляющее большинство клубов имеет бюджет более 10. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 13:09 | ss5dgf4sf4 Отмывание и воровство это все голословные утверждения. Я сказал в этой ветке об официальных данных. А придумывать любой может что угодно. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 13:30 | Да я не придумываю, я по своему клубу сужу. Ты мне скажи, зачем содержать футбольный клуб. Я про Украину могу сказать, что Суркису динамо надо для политики, по Ахметову могу сказать, наверно он просто фанат. Ой точно, и в России все владельцы нефтяных компаний начальники регионаьных администраций тоже фанаты, да? Но я почему считаю так: за трансфер ....ича заплатили 1 млн, а с фондов выделили 2. А проверить это сложно так как сделка происходит через 10 рук и 5 офшоров И тд. Это кстати объясняет засилие легионеров. Со спонсорами та же фигня, выделил спонсор 5 млн на покупку играчилы, его налоговики освободили от налога на эту сумму(или дотировали из бюджета опять же на эту сумму), а трансфер тот стоит то всего тыщ 500. ещ? чего нибудь расказать? Короче говоря, игры еврокубков покажут действительно ли тратят ваши столько денег, сколько заявляют. По твоим источникам у ЦСКА бюджет больш чем у Рейнджерс. Посмотрим, поглядим... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 13:41 | ss5dgf4sf4 Все это проверять это дело налоговой полиции а не мое, я лишь говорю то, что знаю. А для нефтяных компаний - 2-3 миллиона - это копейки, че их отмывать? Я не знаю какой бюджет у Рейнджерс, но помоему всем известно что ЦСКА на одни трансферы в этом году потратил 20-25 мил. Да к тому же не забывай, что на любой расход налог вычитается, а на доход - наоборот прибавляется, так что для продавца увеличивать стоимость не думаю что очень умно :D |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 13:59 | Вообще то я не говорил, что у цска бюджет менее 10 млн. Но, тем не менее диктуй: игрок1/сумма/откуда игрок2/сумма/откуда игрок3/сумма/откуда ____________________ должно получиться ИТОГО 25 МЛН американских рублей. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:06 | Карвальо, Вагнер Лав, Ферейро, Чиди Одиа, Красич, Лайзанс, Алдонин. Первые два - 15 мил, остальные по 2-3-5 мил и еще там кто-то был. Миллионов 25-30 получается. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:07 | По данным твоих "экспертов"(http://www.expert.ru/expert/current/tabs/foottab.shtml) в 2003 году всего лишь 8 клубов имели бюджет 10 и более миллионов долларов. Про 2004 год поговорим когда он закончится, какие то "планируемые" бюджеты брать к сведению не собираюсь. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:10 | Бюджет в начале года составляется а не в конце :D |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:22 | Естественно вначале, только его(бюджет) составляюется в пэо клуба, а не товарищами с сайта ввв.эксперт.... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:24 | Естественно вначале, только бюджет составляется в пэо клуба, а не товарищами с сайта ввв.эксперт.... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:39 | Там и написано то что клуб сказал. Там даже помечено где с помощью оценок определено. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:46 | Итак, купленные в этом году Карвальо 7.5 Вагнер 6 Чиди Одиа 0.5 Красич 1 Алдонин 3 ________________ ИТОГО 18 МЛН. где 25? страдаешь гигантизмом? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 14:52 | Хорошо, уговорил, а теперь дай мне ссылку(доказательство) на сч?т Рубина, Амкара, Ростова, Алании, Ротора. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:12 | ss5dgf4sf4 Чего ты насчитал? Ферейро + 6,5 мил. Вагнер - 7,5 мил. Где ты взял 0.5 по Чиди Одиа? Его стоимость - $6 мил. Страдаешь минимализмом? :D + Жирков, Кусов, Даду. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:16 | СКОЛЬКО, СКОЛЬКО? 6 МЛН? ОТКУДА ТАКАЯ ЦИФРА? ТЫ ХОТЬ ЗНАЕШЬ, ЧТО ОН С МОЛДАВИИ ПРИЕХАЛ!!! А последние, грош им цена. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:20 | ss5dgf4sf4 Поищи вон в поисковой машине хотя бы, а не из пальца цифры высасывай :D Да он пришел из Шериффа за $6 мил, он капитан молодежный нигерийской сборной. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:23 | ссылку жду, я вс? обрыл, никаких фантастических 6 млн не видел. Да в Шахт?р главная звезда Нигерии Агахова приш?л за 6 млн. Шо ты гнать начинаешь, да его реальная цена несколько сот тысяч. И про ферейру ссылку тоже жду. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:29 | Ферейра - также как Одиа молодая аргентинская звезда. Зайди на www.yandex.ru если тебе ссылка нужна. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:37 | Мне не ссылка нужна какая то, а конкретно откуда ты бер?шь инфу. На ч?м строишь свои расч?ты. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:40 | Как это откуда, яндекс находит новостные сайты, там написано сколько стоил трансфер. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:51 | а названия у этих сайтов есть? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rx
Date: 31-07-2004, 15:57 | http://www.uefa.com/footballcentral/news/Kind=2/newsId=149557.html Вот тебе ссылка на $6 мил, нормальная? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: bert.kassies
Date: 31-07-2004, 16:09 | Just to check: is this thread still on-topic? If possible, please use English language. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 16:53 | Russian is recognized as an official international language of the United Nations. If do not understand the message it is your problems, learn Russian. I to write in poor English language I do not gather. Yours faithfully ss5dgf4sf4. Translation from Russian on English is executed by a site - http: // www.translate.ru/text.asp? lang=ru. So all complaints concerning mistakes to it. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 16:56 | Rx Итак, ты вс? ещ? утверждаешь, что ВСЕ российские клубы пл имеют бюджет более 10 млн? |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Giantkiller
Date: 31-07-2004, 18:34 | SS, Good name...smells nazi era... I don't think, my dear, this site is a tribune for a stupid nationalism. I can understand the frustration for Russians to be a second rank country now, but please be polite with bert... It's a friendly advice. Cheers |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: mzok
Date: 31-07-2004, 18:40 | It's a discussion about whether Russian clubs have or do not have budgets of 10 million US $. Nothing to do with nazism or nationalism, maybe not totally on topic though |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 19:39 | 2 Giantkiller Why you write about ss and nazism? I am not nationalist, and i am the patriot of own country and own culture only . Besides I am not from Russia. And I do not feel patriotism to Russia. I prefer to communicate the Ukrainian language. But I think my friend don't speak ukrainean. Therefore I communicate on one of international (Russian) of languages. You can communicate in any language, but anybody will not order to me. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 31-07-2004, 19:44 | mzok, We want to argue. We prevent you? It's your problems. Do not worry, you do not prevent us. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Rosa
Date: 31-07-2004, 22:03 | COULD you please use english. I'm from Poland and i was FORCED to learn russian 20 years ago but on this forum people use english. |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: maymunata
Date: 31-07-2004, 22:54 | It would be better with english. Everyone will understand you (in fact you're not writing anything that you could be ashamed of). Russian are speaking just the people from the east block, but english - everyone. I speak (not so well) both russian and english and i wouldn't complain about that (i speak german best, but don't use it here at all), but the other want everything to be clear and not to have small groups in this forum. And don't be so rude to Bert, he's done an exellent job for YOU all. Be more polite to the master of the house |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: anita
Date: 01-08-2004, 13:25 | Hi,ss5dgf4sf4 I see your problem. We all read and write English in various degrees. Sometimes I look and think so long for the right English word that I just skip the reply. But - 1. When the topic is started in English, it's polite to answer in same language. In Rome, do as the Romans. So, if you want to write in Ukrainean/Russian, I suggest you open own topic. But you obviously write good English, so.... 2. Those BabelFish translations programmes are not that 100%. I have tried to translate some of your contributions, and, well, some of it may sense, some of it the BabelFish-programmes are just guessing. 3. Several of contributors on this Forum come from Scandinavia (quite same language). Sometimes it's tempting to write in "Scandinavian", but other readers/writers may then miss out the relation and continuity in topic. And that's not polite either. regards |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: Zuberbuler
Date: 01-08-2004, 14:54 | It was a good discussion but... |
| Re: 15-th place battle | |
| Author: ss5dgf4sf4
Date: 03-08-2004, 11:03 | Well, I shall write English. But you will understand nothing. I did not want to be impolite with Bert. This site is excellent. |