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Author: anita
Date: 09-07-2004, 16:44

Looking at the UEFA-ranking, Scotland is very close to Holland. 3.3 points (Two for win, one for draw, calculated from 4 teams per nation). Scotland four teams, Holland six this season. Holland trusting three teams, Scotland two. According to Ricardo, PSV has sold Kezman, Rommedahl and Robben without buying replacements yet.

If Celtic/Rangers achieving up to their optimal level, and maybe Hearts (seeded in Round 1) getting through to Group Stage (and why not Dunfermline?), Scotland may get six teams in 2006-07. Meaning that half the Sco PL will play in European Cups!! I think Spain had nine out of twenty one year, but 6/12 must be a record.

Portugal and eventually Scotland will probably lose in ranking with six teams, but what the heck!

regards

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: porto-1978 Date: 09-07-2004, 17:05	eventually and probably yes means eventually and probably not.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: rod_c Date: 09-07-2004, 17:17	With the SPL at an alltime low (teams in administration, teams having to get rid of players etc) I really hope this doesn't happen, the coefficient would never recover. I seem to remember 5 teams in Europe once when there were only 10 in the Premier League (early/mid 80's?) but can't remember the year - anyone else remember it?

Author: Geordiepar
Date: 09-07-2004, 17:29

We seem to be edging closer to the 8th spot. Our yearly coefficient is going up each year and if this continues then sooner or later we'll make 8th spot.

The Scottish league has 12 teams and after they play each other 3 times they split into two groups of six, and each team plays a further five games (one game against each team in either the top section or the bottom section). At present a pretty meaningless split, but if there 6 places in Europe then the split would become much more important.

Last couple of years Celtic have performed superbly well in Europe, but Rangers have done poorly. If both can do well then 8th is definately possible. Hearts are one of the lower seeds in the 1st round of the UEFA and a lot will depend on the draw......a lot of the unseeded teams will be hoping to get drawn against them.

Dunfermline, my own team, will be very lucky to get past the 1st round. We probably need to play our home games away from our home ground as we have an artificial pitch as part of the UEFA trial, except we can only use it in Europe if the opposition agree. Due to our financial situation we lost our best striker (Stevie Crawford) in the summer and our other main striker Craig Brewster is having a knee operation and will miss the start of the season. The replacements will be very inexperienced and certainly won't frighten most of the seeded teams in the first round. A very, very good draw will be required for us to get into the group stage. Of course I hope they do, but much more in hope than in expectation.

It will certainly be interesting in the fight for 8th place and we'll just have to see what happens as the season unfolds.

Author: Geordiepar
Date: 09-07-2004, 17:36

rod_c,

But what effect would one bad year have on our coefficient?

We'd be back to four teams in Europe (which we have at the moment), and the Old Firm might have to play a couple of extra qualifying rounds in the Champions League. The Cup winners in Scotland would also have to enter at the 2nd qualifying round rather than the 1st round proper.

Hardly a disaster as far as I'm concerned and would certainly give the SPL a massive boost the year 6 teams could qualify for Europe. Could be just what the league needs.

Author: anita
Date: 09-07-2004, 18:18

Indeed, Geordiepar

Thinking just of the UEFA nation ranking place, Norway would have been better off with one team and Scotland with two. This season Nor PL teams fight for two places in CLQ 2005-06. Normally a quick elimination in CLQ2 for the "non-Rosenborg" team, but as I said, what the heck?

A stimulance for the national league, and spectators, sponsors, investors. Doing well this year, and Portugal and Greece doing lousy, Scotland may smell on 6th place in a couple of years. Then Sco PL will be really interesting with two teams directly qualified and third team (Dunfermline?) in CLQ3.

Taste on that

Author: clifton
Date: 11-07-2004, 01:05

I've mentioned before that I think it would be a disaster to continue with the split league if Scotland had 6 places.
It would be an injustice to teams coming 7th, 8th, 9th, etc to eliminate them from the possibility of qualifying for Europe before the season has finished, in order to satisfy what is a ridiculous league draw.

Scotland needs to go to 16 teams, play each other twice, bit the bullet on playing a few less games (can revert back to having a winter break). This would also stop teams from losing 4 times a year to rangers and 4 times a year to celtic, might make those games a little more meaningful.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: Ricardo Date: 11-07-2004, 15:05	Actually PSV has bought new players, but I think they still have to grow a bit: Farfan from Peru, William from Brasil is being on a testweek. Feher from Hungary(although he is more a midfielder). And there still is Vonlanthen, who scored against Barthez on Euro2004. And some Dutch guys who are not worth mentioning (I hope they don't read this, otherwise they will be angry)

Author: macaskil
Date: 12-07-2004, 11:04

This thread appears nonsensical to me. Look at Bert's graph of UEFA rankings - Scotland has risen from 26th place to 9th in 5 seasons. If we manage to get up to 6th I don't see how that can be a bad thing. We Scots would be champions if there was a World Cup for pessimism. Of course there are financial problems and a big gap between the top clubs and the rest - but this applies to most of Europe outside the top three or four leagues.

Author: jonjon
Date: 13-07-2004, 10:52

I looked ahead last year a dreaded the thought of six representatives for Scotland. Now i am not so bothered. At the end of the day if we did reach the dizzy heights of having 6 teams, one bad season would really only drop us down back into the zone we are in now, therefore very little change. That is presuming it works out so bad, which it may not do. I really only think it would have a real impact on the Old Firm ie loosing automatic qualification place. So what?? Celtic and Rangers if they keep performing will be seeded for the qualification round and should qualify for the CL with their resources. If they dont i think itwould be their own fault and not because one season we had 6 representatives Besides, just thinking of it, it would be a real boost to the extra two sides qualifying, and kinda fun at the same time. Im all for it.

Author: anita
Date: 13-07-2004, 14:42

And remember that last five years Celtic/Rangers haven't succeded the same year. Counting all points (incl. bonus points)

99/00 Scotland 20.5 points, Rangers 11 and Celtic 6
00/01 Scotland 22.5 points, Rangers 12.5, Celtic 5
01/02 Scotland 26.5 points, Rangers 11.5, Celtic 10
02/03 Scotland 29.5 points, Rangers 2, Celtic 22
03/04 Scotland 29.5 points, Rangers 5.5, Celtic 17

I think it may give more points to Scotland if Rangers fail to qualify for CL, seeded in UC round 1 and going into UC Group Stage. I don't think they calculate like that in Rangers HQ

Author: Arend
Date: 20-07-2004, 19:02

Well the gap between the top teams and the other teams is bigger in Scotland than in other countries that are high in the ranking.

If Scotland manages to reach the top 8, than most prob they will be in the top 8 not one, but 2 years. Since - in the first year that they have a league that gives 6 clubs a ticket to Europe, there will be 4 teams in European competitions.

After those two years, Scotland will be very likely to drop out of the top nine (no direct spot for CL) and maybe even drop out of the top 15 in the years that follow.

Since there are some countries that are not in the top 15 that will find their way into there, this means that some smaller countries will leave the top 15.

On the long run, in the current set up of Domestic and European football, there is no way in which the SPL can be a highly ranked European competition.

Author: tomschman
Date: 20-07-2004, 19:40

Going to six teams will hurt the coefficients in future years, but maybe if more teams get to play in Europe and possibly win one round, it will make the Scottish League stronger. It might possibly increase enthusasium and attendence in the league and domestic cups. I remember in the late 70's and 80's, Aberdeen, Dundee United, Hearts, and Hibs were competitive at various times. The old firm did not have a lock on the league championship and the Scottish Cup. Aberdeen won 2 or 3 championships and Dundee United at least one. I believe that Hearts missed out by a very slim margin. The Scottish League need something to revive it, and possibly 6 teams in Europe might be the catalyst.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: Ricardo Date: 21-07-2004, 09:00	I'm afraid Scotland having 6 teams won't change that. Those days are gone. This has happened in all countries all over Europe if they 3,4,6,7 or even more teams in Europe. Sorry

Author: Geordiepar
Date: 21-07-2004, 11:24

I really can't see the downside to having 6 teams if Scotland get 8th spot. Looking at the rankings it would take a massive fall for Scotland to slip out of the top 15, and that is very unlikely to happen solely due to the extra 2 places for a couple of years.

We'd still have the same number of teams in Europe therefore as at the moment - 2 in CL and 2 in UEFA, albeit the clubs would enter at an earlier stage. For the Old Firm this shouldn't be a problem as they will be seeded and should progress (and if they don't then it's their own fault).

The extra 2 clubs in UEFA cup, where they may have the possibility of getting to the group stage may make a massive difference to Scottish football. Even from purely a financial perspective, adding �1m-�2m from the UEFA group stage for clubs who have turnovers of �5m-�8m will make a big difference. The wage budgets won't be quite so tight and this should help all of Scottish football.

If you assume that Scotland had 6 teams in Europe in the last two years, and both got no points then Scotland would still be comfortably in 13th place in the country ranking list, still over 3.5 points ahead of the teams below.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: Arend Date: 21-07-2004, 11:29	For the first years to come the top 6 is fixed. So a third team in CL is not possible for Scotland. Having two extra teams in UEFA Cup doesn't help that much. In the long run the top 6 will be more open. Just like Portugal and Greece, countries might jump from spots lower than 8 into the top 6.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: tomschman Date: 21-07-2004, 14:52	Ricardo: I agree that those days are probably gone, but one can hope. As it stands right now, the Scottish domestic season has 6 games of interest, Celtic v Rangers 4 times in league and once in each cup.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: Geordiepar Date: 21-07-2004, 14:56	Bollocks. There was nothing 'interesting' last year in the Old Firm games, and the Old Firm didn't meet in either cup.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: Towser Date: 21-07-2004, 15:14	Interesting if you were a Celtic fan, whereby Celtic achieved a 'whitewash' over their rivals, by winning all 5 meetings between themselves and Rangers, including a Scottish Cup 5th Round tie.

Author: MichaelCollins
Date: 17-08-2004, 01:24

Hmm intresting matches in Scotland this season

Hibs v Hearts (the Capital derby)
Motherwell v Old Firm (at FirPark, Motherwell tear into the Old Firm like no ones buisness, very entertaining, takes points off them and all)

Some people like the Dundee derby, I find it kinda dull, but its well liked by loads of people.

Aberdeen v Rangers, has more bad blood almost than the Old Firm.

InvernessCT v Celtic, a wee division one team who just got promoted, but knocked Celtic out of the Scottish Cup twice in the last four years. What are the odds they could spring a surprise again?

We're not just the Old Firm you know. How would the Turkish fans like it if we looked at the superligue as being Fenerbahce-Galatasaray being the only intresting game. What about the Ankara derby, or the other Istanbul meetings, or even when Malatyaspor get in the mix. Or the Czech league, its just Sparta-slavia. denmark is just Brondby-FCK? And who cares about Norway, its only a one team massacre.

Such views are stupid. Just because the Danish Superligen or the SPl or even the Norwegian Tippelegian (sorry if i spell it wrong)is not the overwhelming quality of SerieA does not mean its any less important to the fans who follow it. I'm sure the fans of Ham-Kam and Viborg care as deeply for their team as much as those of Fiorentina and Southampton do.

So, of course I want Scotland to have six European spots. Its not the pessimism of what can happen if it goes wrong. I ask - what will happen if it goes right? A 3rd Champions League spot, if only for a year, gives Hearts a shot at the European elite. It gives them experience so that if the UEFA CUp is what they have the season after they will be enriched for the experience. Same with Motherwell, Dundee United and Aberdeen. Finishing above the Old Firm and Hearts maybe beyond them, but a top six finish is not. Think of the excitement it would whip amongst the fans. The UEFA draw..."and home tie, Motherwell FC will face......Atletico Madrid". It would be massive, Fir Park would sell out in hours, and the tie would generate massive media intrest in this little Scottish side, it could also give them some much needed revenue (MOtherwell having just come out of administration).

What am I trying to say is - would you begrudge the fans of Motherwell or Ham-Kam a chance at Europe, just because they come from an inferior (in your eyes) league? Every fan wants to see their team in Europe, we shouldn't try to extinguish that dream.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: kurt Date: 17-08-2004, 01:47	france had once three intertoto winners, 10 teams in europe that year, a competition of 18 teams, so more than the halve of the competition in europe i believe that is the record

Author: anita
Date: 17-08-2004, 12:21

thx, Michael for inspiring and positive thinking. Too many contributors on this forum are whining of the possibility of getting more teams into EC, i.e. advancing on country ranking. This year in NOR PL two teams will qualify for CLQ next year, and of course this is an inspiration and a boost for the league and teams. Norway have been there several times later years, and normally the non-Rosenborg team say bye-bye in CLQ2 (damaging the country coefficient), but with one exception, Molde eliminating CSKA Moscow in CLQ2 and Real Mallorca in CLQ3 in 99/00.

If you don't dare, you don't win. If you wanna improve as a team, play against the best teams.

If the Scots are satisfied with Dunfermline going to Iceland thinking that beating an Icelandic team will improve Dunfermline and Scottish football, OK.

Author: Forza-AZ
Date: 17-08-2004, 12:21

What am I trying to say is - would you begrudge the fans of Motherwell or Ham-Kam a chance at Europe, just because they come from an inferior (in your eyes) league? Every fan wants to see their team in Europe, we shouldn't try to extinguish that dream.
I don't begrudge Scotland or any other country 6 teams in Europe, only I don't like the idea that is might cost the Netherlands 2 spots, and so a smaller chance for my team to play in Europe.

Author: ianmorrison
Date: 17-08-2004, 20:46

If Hearts can manage to be seeded and earn some pts from uefa cup again this year, then 6 places may not be so bad as Hearts are able to hold their own with middleweights in Europe. They are definitely becoming a clear 3rd force in Scotland in my opinion. With 6 teams in Europe they would qualify every season and add to coefficient allowing them to be seeded more often.

What kills scottish teams other than gers and celtic is that they never have enough pts to be seeded in anything other than qualifying rounds so usually go out in first round with few coefficient pts. That was until last year when Hearts scraped into seeded teams and managed to build up a half decent pts tally. If they manage to be seeded this year and qualify, then they may go further up the rankings with pts from the new group stage format.

It can only be a good thing to have 6 teams in Europe. IMHO

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: MichaelCollins Date: 18-08-2004, 01:40	Thank you Anita for the compliments. I've been told that if optimism was an Olympic sport, I would be recieving my gold medal by now. Mind you I also support strange ideas like UEFA letting me decide who gets into Europe. Hehe, I could have such fun. "Yep, Partick are in the Champions League, so are Barcelona, got have some Polish teams there too....Arsenal who?" lol.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: rbr Date: 18-08-2004, 17:54	Ian what you say is spot on the only trouble is that if the UEFA cup becomes like a mini champions league then like the champions league it will have the same teams competing probably picking up seeding points and then making it harder for first timers to progress .

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: rbr Date: 18-08-2004, 17:57	Michael heres a strange idea how didnt the SPL let caley thistle play at home but give the �600k to thistle or was that too much like common sense !!!!

Author: Geordiepar
Date: 18-08-2004, 19:17

Have to agree that Scotland's biggest problem in recent years is that a team does well and qualifies for Europe the next year, but by the time the following year comes and they are in Europe they invariably have lost their best players to bigger clubs and struggle in the SPL, and also in Europe. This year my team Dunfermline have had a financial crisis which has seen us lose a number of players, including our topo goalscorer and also our excellent management team. So far we have been awful in all of our games, including our very lucky 2-2 draw in Iceland when realistically 5-1 wouldn't have flatterd Hafnarfjordur. There is still everything to play for and I can see us getting turned over at home.

Although not much better than most of the SPL teams, Hearts have managed to be succesful in the SPL for a couple of succesive years and the fact they will be seeded in the 1st round is a big boost. This certainly won't guarantee them a place in the Group stage but does give them a better chance. However a bad draw and it could well be that Hearts and Dunfermline fail to win a tie between them, which would be a massive blow to Scotland's hopes of getting 8th place.

Re: Scotland six teams in 2006-07?
Author: anita Date: 18-08-2004, 20:57	Geordiepar, that problem is trickier for the countries with summer series like Norway and Sweden. From the time they qualify until they play in EC is almost a year. In Scotland just some months.

Author: MichaelCollins
Date: 19-08-2004, 01:17

Rbr, don't get me started on that load of freeloading blazers who call themselves the SFA! Or the SPL for that matter, the Self Preservation league.

You might not know this, but the SPL and SFA stabbed my precious Partick Thistle in the back last term. I have no problems with the bottom team in a league being relegated - makes sense. What I do have anger at is that the old ruling for the SPL was that you needed a safe 10,000 seater stadium (after the Ibrox disaster in 1970s, and Hillsborough). Fair enough. Inverness's Caley staduim didnt seat 10, 000. A shame, but the truth. So what do the SPL do?

They change the rulings.....with four games to go in the season! Right after the weekend where we find out we can't catch up on Aberdeen (after they won at Celtic of all places!) the SPL changes the rules. What makes this really stink is that Aberdeen have been bottom of the league twice, and both times reprieved by the SPL for similar "stadia problems". It seems quite clear that had Aberdeen been bottom, Inverness would have been barred access to the SPL as had Falkirk the year before.

And I wont even go into the double vote, and the backstabbing of the other SPL clubs. It all beggers belief. And for the matter, I accept relegation, But the SPL messed it all up beyond belief.

Caley Thistle have to pay for ground rental, because the SPL want all the money for the rich at the expense of the poor. What a mess our game is in.