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9th Position
Author: celtbhoy Date: 26-03-2004, 11:27	Am I correct in thinking that if Celtic win two more games then Scotland will be in 9th pos?

Re: 9th Position
Author: Eurycantha Date: 26-03-2004, 11:37	Celtbhoy yes, you're right; if Celtic would beat Villarreal twice, they will get 4 points (two wins) + 1 bonus point (semi-final) = 5 points : 4 teams = 1,250 31,875 + 1,250 = 33,125, which brings Scotland at position 9th. Regards

Re: 9th Position
Author: Sanibel Date: 26-03-2004, 11:44	Czechs hold 9th position. Villareal will beat Celtic in quarterfinal i hope so place for CHL 2005 will be ours!!!

Re: 9th Position
Author: mr5tan Date: 26-03-2004, 12:14	i'm a rangers fan, but, to be honest, celtic will beat villareal and 9th place will still be scotland's, much as i hate to see celtic doing well, its good for scottish football

Re: 9th Position
Author: Jan Date: 26-03-2004, 12:27	Sorry but... Isn't Scotland 9th already? http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/qual2004.html Thanks for every explanation!

Author: vakho
Date: 26-03-2004, 12:41

Jan - now we discuss the Champions League entries for
September, 2005.

I don't think Celtic has to beat twice Villareal,
they can easily get 9th place by just qualifying
to next round and earn at least some points over there.
Barcelona is much stronger than Villareal especially
now but they still lost...

For 8th place Celtic has to gain 9 points over PSV.
It means in average winning the UEFA Cup itself, while PSV has to loose in quarters. Then Scotland will have 6 teams in Europe in 05-06 season.

Re: 9th Position
Author: pollymac Date: 26-03-2004, 12:51	vakho- 6 places, scary (but nice) thought!

Author: jonjon
Date: 26-03-2004, 12:52

Jan: that is for next season, and uses the country rankings as at the end of season 2002/03.
This season Scotland are in 11th position just behind Turkey and the Czech Rep. Though as has been pointed out in here another decent performance by Celtic could life them back up to 9th and that all important automatic place in the CL. The ranking at the end of this season will determine qualification for 2004/05.

Not sure if the Celts will beat Villareal home and away, but im reasonably confident that they will go through and gain at least the 5 points needed in both the quarters and semis. Tremendous stuff when you think back 4-5 years ago.

My only concern is looking at the rankings table as it will be next season, the teams starting in positions 7-12 are all very close. If Celtic keep up these results next season and Rangers were to contribute a little better to our co-efficient, Scotland could possibly be in line for 6 places. Great for that one season, but in the following 4 seasons they will no doubt pay for it. When will UEFA realise that 5 teams shared between positions 6-11 is far better for all involved. Turkey and Holland have paid for it massively in the last 2 years, and both those leagues have more depth than any of those Scotland, Czech Rep and Belgium (though no doubt some may disagree slightly).

Re: 9th Position
Author: Garve Date: 26-03-2004, 17:42	I believe that to play in Europe, clubs must be in the top division in their country, and must be solvent (not in administration). With the way the premierleague is going we might struggle to supply 6 teams. Another question: why do UEFA draw two rounds at once, so that Celtic knew they'd be playing Roma or Villareal? It seems to spoil some of the romance of a cup competition.

Re: 9th Position
Author: pollymac Date: 29-03-2004, 11:37	Garve, they drew all the remaining rounds at once. Celtic, should they beat Villareal, will play Bordeaux or Valencia (1st leg at Celtic Park), with the winners categorized as the 'home' team in the final. Still, it means we can start thinking about buying tickets for the final before we play our qtr final (deja vu, anyone?) ticket info here

Author: jonjon
Date: 06-04-2004, 08:58

I would not put it past this Celtic team to push Scotland back up to 9th, however a win at home on Thursday against Villareal would bring Scotland up to 10th. Excluding any big surprises in the 2nd leg of the CL Quarters i think Turkey are most likely to get an automatic CL place next season after finishing 10th in the rankings last season. So while 9th would be great, i think 10th would give a pretty solid chance of an automatic CL spot too.

Author: anita
Date: 06-04-2004, 23:50

Scotland (Celtic) needs 1,7 points = 2 points to pass Turkey. They need 4,8 points = 5 points to pass Cze.

If they go on to the semi-final, they will at least gain 3 points, and then they need 2 points against (probably) Valencia.

I think the best way of getting 5 points is to take 4 of them against Villareal. If PSV gets nil points against Newcastle, Scotland needs 8,2 points = 9 points to pass the Dutchmen. Then the Scots are there with six teams in 2005-06. And if you are polite in next seasons domestic league, you may pick up a fair-play-team as well. Holy maloney!!

Turkey (Gaziantep, Gencerli this year), Holland/Portugal(has at least three teams that are competitive) is not that much cursed by the six-team-rule as Scotland eventually will be. On the other hand, that will show the stupidity of the six-team-rule for eight nations.

Cheers

Re: 9th Position
Author: vakho Date: 07-04-2004, 12:48	To Anita - Good dream ! But why you stop dreaming on just 6 + 1 Fair play i.e. 7 team limit for Scotland. Scotland can apply for 2 places in Intertoto cup in 05 and if those two teams will get into 3 IC finalists Scotland will have 9 teams - isn't it better ! The problem then would be to devide each earned point by 9

Re: 9th Position
Author: JPV Date: 07-04-2004, 13:17	Suppose this would happen: Schotland is nr3 (don't say this is impossible, Belgium was almost nr3 20 years ago ) So, 4 CL teams, 3 UEFA Cup teams. Nr 8 wins the UEFA Cup, enters the UEFA. 3 teams enter Intertoto & win, so nr 9,10 & 11 enter UEFA Cup nr 12 is fair play winner, enters UEFA Cup... All 12 teams would enter UEFA :D

Author: anita
Date: 07-04-2004, 17:05

Hi guys

If two Scottish teams (not Celt and Rang) attend Intertoto and come out on the other side, Scotland will prove that they have more than just two teams of European standard. And then they will have no problem with the six-team-rule. And then the argument against the six-team-rule is gone.

And Scotland among the four best... When (if, trust in you) Belgium were up there, there were quite other rules.

But keep on dreaming. And watch out for the Easter bunny

Re: 9th Position
Author: JPV Date: 07-04-2004, 17:24	http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/data/method1/crank1980.html Belgium indeed used to be nr 3 . Weird if you look at it now, but that's it...

Re: 9th Position
Author: anita Date: 07-04-2004, 17:42	Yeah, JPV, those were the days. In 1998 Norway was in tenth, and Scotland was on 26th behind Georgia and Cyprus....In danger of getting my head cut off, I think todays rules are pretty OK. Except for the six-team-rule and the FP spots, but UEFA has moved in the right direction all the way to reflect the "reality".

Re: 9th Position
Author: Sanibel Date: 08-04-2004, 19:33	Hi, Villareal has already scored in Celtic?s stadium so i hope Czechs will hold 9th position!!! Real and Barca are out but smaller teams keep the flag of Spanish football.

Re: 9th Position
Author: ianmorrison Date: 08-04-2004, 20:25	I wouldn't rule out Celtic yet. They've just equalized. They seem to have a never say die attitude. On Saturday they kept their 76 match match unbeaten record at home with 2 goals in the last minute! Very interesting game. Villareal look a good side. Hard to believe its there first ever season in Europe.

Re: 9th Position
Author: ranca Date: 08-04-2004, 20:41	Villareal has stregthened their squad with some experienced players before this season, such as Riquelme and Anderson. By the way, every year one "smaller" team from Spain gets to late stages of UEFA Cup (Alaves, Malaga, ...). That's not just a coincidence.

Re: 9th Position
Author: Nefi Date: 09-04-2004, 09:02	Celtic had a realy good season this year but i thing this is an end. S final rank is CZE 9th; TUR 10th; SCO 11th.

Author: anita
Date: 10-04-2004, 12:16

Celtic - and scottish teams generally - is considered to be a typical home team, but they have proven this season that they can keep up on foreign ground as well. 0-0 versus BayernM and Barca is proof enough.

Even though Villareals "long and winding road" to the QF is impressive, they have met teams like Trabzon, TorpedoM and a Galatasaray in free fall and deep shit.

And eliminating Roma may seem OK, but Roma had trouble last round against Gaziantepspor,so..

My conclusion? Just that this years European Cups has proven that its not good enough to bear up a traditionally solid name. A lot of lesser known clubs throughout Europe can present 10-15 players of international standard, and with good tactics, systems, team spirit and dicipline such teams can beat everyone.

Anyway, my vote goes to Celtic. They managed 0-0 in Barcelona; they just have to repeat that performance against a team that ought to be weaker than Barca.

And cheers to you

Author: Eurycantha
Date: 10-04-2004, 12:41

Anita,

Just to say that Celtic, unfortunately, was beaten
in Munich by Bayern: 2-1, in one of the better
matches Celtic played away
Of course at home, at Celtic Park, the last match
they lost was again Ajax (3rd QR) and if I am
correct they were not beaten 76 home matches till
today
In my opinion Celtic is improving in the away matches:
Lost against Juventus, Rosenborg and Porto
Lost against Bayern, Anderlecht and Lyon with only
one goal difference
won at Blackburn, Liverpool and Boavista

Still no official news on UEFA site concerning the
2004/2005 NEW regulations

Regards

Author: anita
Date: 10-04-2004, 13:11

Oops. It was 0-0 in Glasgow. And yes, I saw the 1-2 match on TV, and Celtic was absolutely in there. And agree, like Rosenborg (why do I always have to mention them), Celtic has improved a lot away, and I think maybe next year they may be ready for advancement in CL.

I have had an idea about Scottish football. Well, just now Rangers are not "fully equipped" compared to Celtic, but if the Scots first play a normal double series, 22 matches. Then the two best teams (hmm)play final matches like in ice hockey, or better, like snooker. Let us say best of 15 or 21 matches. And the other teams play another double series of 10 teams.

Actually I think it will improve Scottish football, also the "other" teams. And it should not be a problem filling Ibrox (?) every wekeend. I mean, Celtic is 100 points ahead of Rangers, but still 60000 fills up the Stadium in the "Old Firm".

And thanks for remembering me concerning the new regulations. I dont believe it before I see it on the UEFA website. I find it peculiar and unfair to change the rules retroactively. Maybe that is an interesting topic to discuss on this forum. The fairness and "justice" in retroactive laws and regulations....

Re: 9th Position
Author: bert.kassies Date: 10-04-2004, 15:25	anita and Eurycanta. See thread new team ranking confimation needed? for a reaction on your questions.

Re: 9th Position
Author: ralfinho Date: 11-04-2004, 14:58	To anita: I saw the Bayern - Celtic match live. I think that, according to chances, Bayern could have won 4:1.

Author: putzeijs
Date: 13-04-2004, 11:41

Anita, It is possible that I misunderstood your remark on the 3th place of Belgium in the Country Ranking of 1980. Nevertheless.
In the 3 seasons 75-76 / 76-77 / 77-78 Belgian teams played 6 semi-finals of European cups, 5 finals of which they won 2. (Anderlecht played 3 times in a rope final of Uefa cup winners cup).
I guess with this track record we could be in top positions once again.

Nowdays we can hope to be in 10th place again, seen the current countrie ranking covering 2001-05, buth I would not bet on it.

And to JPV: for me it's not the Bosman rule, buth the Bellemans proces that is the mean reason for our poor results after those 3 topyears.

Author: Eurycantha
Date: 13-04-2004, 13:24

putzeijs & JPV,

Jeroen: when became Bosman really effective?

Just correct me if I'm wrong, but in this I agree with putzeijs.
not only in the seventies and eighties, but also in the period
89/90 until 93/94 Belgium was still 4th or 5th. After that the
"steep downhill" began:
94/95 8th
95/96 8th
96/97 12th
97/98 20th (badest result) and then the climb again
98/99 18th
99/00 17th
00/01 12th
01/02 14th
02/03 11th
03/04 12th
putzeijs: just a "black hole" in my memory, please "enlighten"
it: Bellemans, of course I have heard it, but at this moment
there is really "nothing" what I could say about it.
When you will tell me, I will say: "How could I have forgotten this?"
Maybe I have to admit that with getting older ��
Regards

Author: JPV
Date: 13-04-2004, 14:43

short & very dirty translation from an interesting article in Dutch :
(eurycanthia, you can read the dutch article instead

)
Belgian football reached its heights in the early 90's. The successfull EC 1980 in Italy was followed by winning the opening game in the WC82 against Argentina. The same year, Standard reached the finals of ECII (with Raymond Goethans), and in 83, Anderlecht won the UEFACup.

The success proved to be fake. 28 februari 1984, Eric Gerets was arrested and interrogated by Guy Bellemans. Jef Jurion (ex-player) & Eddy Wauters (still antwerp's chairman) got a couple of days emprisoned. Bellemans found a circuit of black money, which made it possible to buy big players with false passports & to compete with the foreign top teams.

The Bellemans-affaire also exposed some bribes. He found out Standard won the title by bribing the players from 'waterschei'. A lot of players weren't allowed to play for a period up to 2 years (including Eric Gerets, Michel Preud'homme, Walter Meeuws, Jos Daerden, ...). Raymond Goethals (who won the EC I final in the 90's) wasn't allowed to take up an official position in football for 2 years.
-----------

i don't consider this to be the major problem for belgian teams, since belgium teams weren't doing bad after that period.

Bosman was in 1995
http://europa.eu.int/comm/sport/key_files/circ/b_bosman_nl.html

Re: 9th Position
Author: Eurycantha Date: 13-04-2004, 14:57	Thanks Jeroen Regards

Author: anita
Date: 13-04-2004, 17:52

Hi eurycantha and putzeijs

Didnt mean to offend belgian football. What I was trying to express was that with present rules, it is impossible for Belgium to gain a third place (7 teams) where it requires at least 3-4-5-6 teams of decent international standard. But I think Portugal and 5-6-7-8 place may be in reach. From next season Portugal is just behind France, but then they have to face the six-team-rule, and then its down the slope again.

Same thing will probably happen with Belgium if they climb to 8th spot. But if Celtic and PSV lose their matches this week, Belgium will next season start at 10th place (4 teams), 5,5 points behind Scotland (4 teams) and 8,8 behind Holland (6 teams). So the chance is there for six teams 2006-07.

Regards