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Author: Munja
Date: 16-03-2004, 17:09

In yugoslavia, since 1992, there are only two good clubs. Out of twenty four trophies, Crvena Zvezda won 11, Partizan 11, Sartid 1 and Obilic 1. Also, almost everyone in Yugoslavia support either Crvena Zvezda or Partizan, and they have their second clubs in place they live. So, when this two clubs play away, they have more supporters on stadium than home team. And Crvena Zvezda's stadium Marakana is about 200 meters away from Stadium JNA (Partizan's stadium, former Jugoslav National Army stadium), so they never have feeling of playing away.
"The great rivals" are seeded in all the cup rounds except semifinal (so they cannot play against each other even in quaterfinals).
Crvena Zvezda and Partizan are the only clubs that have real budget. Truth, it is poor (less than 5 million euro), but other clubs can only spend less than 50.000 or maybe 100.000 euro. Because no one can own a club or stadium in my country (except the state, of course), the only sourses of money are sponsors and foreign clubs which by our players. And there is no more than 15 or so professional clubs.

Re: Crvena Zvezda and Partizan phenomenon
Author: duke Date: 16-03-2004, 21:29	yes, they have budgets... but, no ,really in serbian football you don't have real competition. partizan earned approx. 30mil e and they sold players afterwards and not to mention referees and competition regularity. they just waste time.

Author: jonjon
Date: 17-03-2004, 10:10

Munja, while there may be more state control in your country than elsewhere, i don't think the situation you describe is too different to many European leagues. Asides the top leagues which have the economic power and population to support a number of large teams, most countries are dominated by 2,3 or 4 teams who in terms of support, success and finance eclipse their league rivals.

The same dominance occurs in Scotland (2teams), Portugal(3), Netherlands(3), Belgium (2), Greece (3), Turkey(3-4), Czech Republic(2) and so on.

Some leagues have managed to maintain more clubs of an equal size, however the teams from smaller leagues who tend to compete better in European terms, more often than not come from leagues in which a few clubs dominate and in which they are a powerhouse. It is even worth noting that within most of the larger leagues a relatively few number of clubs are dominating almost exclusively in term of the championship-including England, Spain, Italy and Germany. While these leagues may boast numerous other large and rich clubs, there are still 2-4 clubs who are far more powerful than the rest.

Re: Crvena Zvezda and Partizan phenomenon
Author: kerrbhoy Date: 18-03-2004, 08:09	The Czech league is more competitive. Banik Ostrava well ahead this year and in the last 2 years Liberec & Sparta both won. The Austrian league is quite competitive & until recently so was the Swiss. Possibly Denmark but it seems the 2 Cophenhagen teams are pulling away now..

Author: Nefi
Date: 18-03-2004, 11:47

It is interesting that similar situation was in the Czech rep. with Sparta and Slavia. Before 2nd world war their stadiums were also cca 300 hundred meters away from each other. Slavia was founded several month earlier than Sparta in 1893. Slavia has red-white football shirt with red star (no connection with communism or anything like that) and Sparta has red football dress. Supporters of Sparta were originaly workers and Slavia had middle class as supporters. I was very proud seeing short video about english teams on continent,where as an example Surrey Wanderers played with Slavia in 1901 (Slavia lost twice 2:4 and 1:5). Before first war Slavia was one of the best team on continent even though level of english teams was higher than anything else thouse days. Slavia-Oxford 0:3 in 1899; Slavia-Celtic Glasgow 1:4 in 1904; Slavia-Bayern Munchen 13:0 and 8:0 in 1906. Slavia-Manchester United 0:2 in 1908. Between wars both Slavia and Sparta dominated czechoslovak football. After communist coup in 1948 Slavia become target of government hatred - all property of Slavia was conficated, Slavia's stadium was leveled to ground (where monumental Stalin statue was build instead) and team was forced to move away to another place in Prague. Sparta dominates czech football from year 1984. Even though some people deny it, in czech league all fans can be divided in 2 groups: Sparta fans or Slavia fans.

Author: vilco
Date: 22-03-2004, 11:33

After over a decade of Champions league football the trend of a couple of teams dominance has intensified. The big teams are getting richer and the gap between the 'have' and the 'have not's' is widening all over Europe. Lot's of countries are starting to see that only a handful of clubs have the possibility to win the league over the next few years.

This is not good for football and competition, I believe over the next 5 to 10 years there will be a big change in Europe with national leagues being merged to form bigger leagues.

· The Portuguese joining with la liga,
· Scotland joining with the English Premiership,
· The Scandinavian countries joining,
· Belgium and Holland joining
· Austria and the Czech rep. in the Bundesliga
· Swiss in with France.

It maybe harder in countries in the old Yugoslavia to join after the troubles they have had but football may not survive if competition is eroded within countries and the teams are not having a decent run in European football.

Fans and Nationalists may not like the break up of National leagues but the big clubs only smell money now, nothing else matters to them and they are the ones gaining power.

Author: byl
Date: 23-03-2004, 06:06

"The same dominance occurs in Scotland (2teams), Portugal(3), Netherlands(3), Belgium (2), Greece (3), Turkey(3-4), Czech Republic(2) and so on. "

in belgium the two "topteams" don't always get the trophies. The past 10 years only 11 out of 20 trophies went to anderlecht or club brugge:

league champions:
anderlecht 4
club brugge 3
rc genk 2
lierse sk 1

cup winner:
club brugge 3
racing genk 2
anderlecht 1
germinal 1
lierse sk 1
westerlo 1
la louviere 1

Author: jonjon
Date: 23-03-2004, 10:32

Point taken byl. I guess my reading was more concerned with the league, and since 1980 it is 17 of the 23 titles, and they are 1st and 2nd again this year. Im not saying that the Belgium league cannot throw up surprises. However, from what i gather from other Belgiums in here and from those i have met travelling, these two teams will mostly occupy the top two positions in the league, although every few years one of the other teams will provide a short challenge. Cup competitions are different in that there are always bound to be upsets, but the league always provides the more accurate story.

Belgium seems to have maintained a slightly better degree of competition than some other leagues, in that there is still a reasonable record of some of the other clubs being able to challenge from time to time. But i am just making the observation that countries with smaller populations cannot really suport a high level of competition.

Author: Eurycantha
Date: 23-03-2004, 18:55

Byl/Jonjon

I think Jonjon is right and in my opinion there is a big difference between
league and cup; in the league, over a period of eight or nine months it will
be (NOT ALWAYS) one of the top-teams.
During the last ten years in Belgium there were 4 different clubs, which
could win the championship; there were 7 different clubs to win the cup.
Look at the Netherlands, in the last twenty years only AZ has won one
championship, all the others went to the traditional top three
The cup however, was won by other teams and will be won this season
again by FC Twente or FC Utrecht.
It is, in my opinion, "easier" for the other teams to beat a top team in
the rather short cup-competition than "in the long run" league-competition.
Look at Scotland's semi finalists: Celtic/Livingstone/Dunfermline and
Inverness ("Caley")
Englands semi finalists: Arsenal/Manchester United/Sunderland and
Millwall
Germany's finalists: Werder Bremen and Alemania Aachen

Author: Arend
Date: 24-03-2004, 11:22

Bundesliga, Premiera Division etc should stay the way they are. Also I do not want Ajax to play in the Bundesliga. Only the idea......

I do think European, but I do not think English or German.

I think there should be a level BETWEEN the smaller leagues and the CL. That means that the strongest teams will stay play in their own league, but they will also play in a regional league.

What you can do is the following thing: Europe can be split up in 3 parts. One part for the northern countries with winter stops between October and April, one part for the eastern and alpic countries with winterstops from December untill March and one part for the countries with small winter breaks.

The teams in the three regions play in TWO competitions. The winners of the natiuonal competion get access to the qualifieers for the CL (and some runners up), the winners of the regional competition get access to the first round of the CL.

Countries that do not want to play in the regional european competition do not have to play in the regional competition. For Spain and England it's not intresting at all.

In western Europe the national competition can be two times 10 teams, a higher and a lower level. The regional European competition can be one time ten teams at the highest level, with two teams ten teams below that etc etc.

In the eastern and northern part the competition can be two times 8 teams.

That's the general idea.

There are lots details that need to be worked out in such a plan, but that is not a very big problem.

Teams that are number 9 and 10 in the national league can play games versus the number tow and three of the sceond leagie AFTER the end of the season. The winner of these three teams will have to leave the national league AND the regional European league. The number 1 of the second level can always go up one level.

Countries like Denmark where teams normally play 33 games a year can create a poule system in the first cup round, so they will have 28 league games, and at least 6 cup games.

Like this the bigger teams from the smaller countries will play in very intresting and competetive leagues and also the tradition of national league will continue.