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1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: Cobwebcat Date: 13-03-2004, 02:11	Don't ask how I calculated it. It took quite sometime and as UEFA regard a point won in the UC to have equal standing as a point won in the CL (which is clearly wrong) I thought I would calculate it. So those of you who were saying that a CL point should be counted as double a UC point now that there are an equal number of games (13)were not too far off.

Re: 1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: idemaa Date: 13-03-2004, 02:27	Hey mate, The only way people are able to react to his item of yours and to this number 1.83 is when you at least kind of tell us how you calculated it.... It seems fairly silly to me but i'm interested

Author: Cobwebcat
Date: 14-03-2004, 11:51

Well ive got my own ranking system which utilises the UEFA co-efficients. The teams all get a final total. By dividing the total of the co-efficients by the total of the ranking points you get the average value of 1 ranking point. You then add the total ranking points of the participants in each competition, take the average, and divide by the value of the first figure you calculated. The CL has a co-fficient of 13.4 the UC is 7.3. Divide one by the other 1.8. I bet you are sorry you asked now!!!!

1st SPA Real Madrid 1497
2nd ITA Juventus 1259
3rd ENG Manchester United 1257
4th SPA Deportivo La Coruna 1240
5th ITA AC Milan 1238
6th SPA Barcelona 1226
7th SPA Valencia 1211
8th ENG Arsenal 1191
9th ITA AS Roma 1060
10th ITA Inter 1019
11th GER Bayern Munchen 1005
12th ENG Liverpool 919
13th ENG Chelsea 915
14th ITA Lazio 877
15th ENG Newcastle 840
16th GER Borussia Dortmund 831
17th SPA Real Sociedad 824
18th SPA Real Betis 803
19th GRE Panathinaikos 801
20th ITA Parma 794
21st SPA Athletic Bilbao 791
22nd SPA Celta Vigo 787
23rd GER Stuttgart 783
24th POR FC Porto 771
25th FRA Lyon 767
26th GER Leverkusen 761
27th GER Werder Bremen 756
28th SPA Malaga 745
29th SPA Sevilla 740
30th SCO Glasgow Celtic 726
31st HOL Ajax Amsterdam 713
32nd GRE Olympiakos 711
33rd SPA Atletico Madrid 707
34th SPA Mallorca 706
35th SPA Osasuna 703
36th SPA Villarreal 703
37th HOL PSV Eindhoven 696
38th ITA Udinese 686
39th GER Schalke 04 682
40th SPA Valladolid 651
41st FRA Monaco 637
42nd SPA Racing Santander 619
43rd FRA Auxerre 616
44th GER Hertha Berlin 610
45th GRE AEK Athens 605
46th HOL Feyenoord 604
47th FRA Paris SG 599
48th FRA Bordeaux 591
49th SPA Espanyol 579
50th ENG Charlton 572

Author: Arend
Date: 14-03-2004, 21:08

I think I have to read the explanation really carefully befor I get it 100%, there is one small problem anyway:

Every point that a team gets in the CL untill the second round has more potential than every point a team gets in the UEFA Cup.

Teams that play in the qualifieers of the UEFa Cup are out when they lose, teams that play in the 3th Q-round of CL always atleast go to the UEFA Cup, where they might and most prob will get more points than O.

Than again with the new groupstage in the UEFA Cup teams will get a lot of points in UEFA Cup also...

Re: 1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: badgerboy Date: 14-03-2004, 21:36	Sorry - I know it's not strictly relevant but why are Charlton on the list in 50th place. Is that because they are 4th in the league right now and hence 50th = "any team from England with no previous euro points?"

Re: 1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: squeal Date: 15-03-2004, 16:41	So what you actually mean is that the avarage coefficient of the CL team is about 183% of the avarage coefficient of the UC team? Because that's what I got from your method by eliminating all the constants. Or did I misunderstand you at some point? Well, if I didn't, it's hardly breaking news, if you ask me.

Re: 1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: Cobwebcat Date: 15-03-2004, 18:34	Arend: I have allowed for the points you refer to in your points. I don't count qualifying rounds at all just the tournament itself. Badgerboy: Its not any team that is 4th in England. It depends how many domestic points they accumulated over the last three seasons. Squeal: Yes you are correct

Re: 1 CL point is worth 1.83 times 1 UC point
Author: Nefi Date: 17-03-2004, 14:50	This ranking system favours UP-countries. No BEL, no TUR, no CZE. Maybe 100th spanish team would be higher than danish champion

Author: Cobwebcat
Date: 17-03-2004, 18:52

Nefi: The ranking is not subjective. I print what the computer says. I don't have a particular agenda. The highest Belgian team is Anderlecht (58th) Turkish is Galatasaray (56th) and Czech is Sparta Prague (68th).

Danish? Brondby (158th)although I believe only the top 90 or so places are accurate.

I have no idea who the 100th best Spanish team is but if you doubt their dominance in recent years you should check the results. I believe Villareal have just beaten Roma?

Author: jonjon
Date: 18-03-2004, 09:49

Cobwebcat:
I am not disputing the dominance of the top teams from the larger leagues, but having teams from the big leagues with no recent performances in Europe well up above many teams with good recent records is not reflecting the reality of the situation.

I use the example of the Premiership as it is the big league i know most about. Many small teams in the Premiership have one (or sometimes 2 if they do really well) seasons in which the outperform themeselves, they get a little bit of form together and perform fanatastically. Unfortunately all to often the following season they don't quite pick up where they left off and really struggle and some have been relegated only one season after they have qualified for Europe.

Recent examples of clubs performing fantasticlly one season and struggling the next have been Ipswich, Sunderland and Leicester. I am not suggesting Charlton will be relegated next season, but i seriously doubt if they will be in the same position this time next year. To suggest they are a better side than Sparta Prague (who incidentally put out Lazio and qualified for the second phase of the CL), Anderlecht and Galatasaray amongst others, i dont think reflects the reality of the situation. I can understand weighting being given to clubs from the larger leagues, but there is something a little unrealistic here.
Racing Santandar are ranked 42nd??????
Their league positions from the last few years are:
1997/98 - 14th
1998/99 - 15th
1999/2000 - 15th
2000/01 - 19th (relegated)
2001/02 - 2nd division (promoted)
2002/03 - 16th
currently - 12th
Therefore no European qualification, an and additionally they have been in the second division only 2 seasons ago - i cannot see how they could manage to gain such a high ranking. Real Valadolid are 40th with a similar record, never qualifying for Europe and always finishing in the bottom half. Osasuna are 35th and although they are having a relatively good season currently 7th, they were only promoted to the to flight in 2000/01 with finishing positions of 12th, 15th and 17th. Malaga and Sevilla are 28th and 29th, also not having European record and having been relegated to the 2nd Division also in the last 5 years (Sevilla twice since 1997!!), yet they are above Celtic (UC finalists last year), Ajax, Feyenord (UC winners) and PSV. Sorry i can't help but think the weighting you have given to some clubs due to their nationality is a little too generous.

I do agree that the CL should be weighted more than the UC, but i can't figure out how these clubs could gain such a high ranking.

Author: Cobwebcat
Date: 21-03-2004, 20:12

Depends how you look at it and i'm using statistics rather than who I think would be better than who. The fact is the Spanish league is by far the strongest league in Europe. Should a team finishing consistently 12th in the top league be penalised for not being in Europe? Additionally position in the league is irrelevant its points gained in the season multiplied by the nations average co-efficient over a three year period plus points gained in Europe. The top 8 leagues are all stronger (on average) than the UEFA cup entrants (on average)and remember that a lot less games are played in Europe than the domestic leagues. A lot of ranking systems give "bonus points" for reaching different rounds etc mine doesn't. You should ask yourself where would Sparta Prague finish in La Liga?

Malaga
Author: Cobwebcat Date: 21-03-2004, 20:22	reached the last eight of the UC last season by the way going out to Boavista on pens

Author: Cobwebcat
Date: 22-03-2004, 23:29

the domestic results (something which I'm not sure is mathematicaly correct yet it looks like this:

1 SPA Real Madrid
2 ENG Manchester United
3 SPA Barcelona
4 ITA AC Milan
5 ITA Juventus
6 SPA Deportivo La Coruna
7 ENG Arsenal
8 SPA Valencia
9 ITA Inter
10 ENG Liverpool
11 POR FC Porto
12 GER Bayern Munchen
13 ITA AS Roma
14 GER Borussia Dortmund
15 FRA Lyon
16 ENG Chelsea
17 ENG Newcastle
18 GRE Panathinaikos
19 SCO Glasgow Celtic
20 GER Stuttgart
21 HOL PSV Eindhoven
22 GER Leverkusen
23 HOL Ajax Amsterdam
24 ITA Lazio
25 SPA Celta Vigo
26 CZE Sparta Prague
27 SPA Real Sociedad
28 ITA Parma
29 TUR Galatasaray
30 SPA Mallorca
31 FRA Bordeaux
32 BEL Club Brugge
33 SPA Malaga
34 HOL Feyenoord
35 FRA Auxerre
36 FRA Monaco
37 BEL Anderlecht
38 GRE AEK Athens
39 SPA Real Betis
40 GER Schalke 04
41 GRE Olympiakos
42 RUS Lokomotiv Moscow
43 SPA Villarreal
44 TUR Besiktas
45 GER Hertha Berlin
46 SWI Basel
47 POR Boavista
48 UKR Dynamo Kyiv
49 GRE PAOK Saloniki
50 FRA Lens

Author: Mauve4ever
Date: 28-03-2004, 19:17

To compare CL and UC, you must also calculate the potential of points.

In CL, you have 6 matchs in Group Stage, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2 and the final = 13 matchs = potential of 26 points.
Last year, were 2 Group Stage = 17 matchs = 34 points.

In UC this year, you have 13 matchs = 26 points.
Next year, you will have 2+5+2+2+2+2+1 = 16 matchs = 32 points.

I think that we will see clubs who plays more UC than CL like Bordeaux, Liverpool, Schalke... higher in the coefficients club ranking... and it's not normal... it's easier to win matchs in the UC than in CL.

Author: squeal
Date: 29-03-2004, 15:37

Well, in fact, you have to count the AVARAGE number of points the team gets instead of the ones it can POTENTIALLY be awarded. Yes, any team can POSSIBLY win UEFA Cup, but, surprisingly, there's only one such team every year, while 48 of them end the competition after playing only two matches...

When you actually count that, you get (for this year):

Avg number of points of the CL team: 250/32 ~= 7.2
Avg number of points of the UC team: 410/96 ~= 4.2

And when you divide the first number by the second, you get: 750/410 ~= 1.83. Meaning that the avarage CL team gets 183% of the points the avarage UC team does. A miracle, or what?

Author: Cobwebcat
Date: 31-03-2004, 18:03

Squeal: How spooky is that? though potentially there are another 8 teams in the UC that are the CL losers.

Having modified my rankings a little here are the latest top 50. Remember teams still in Europe have a reasonable chance to pass those above them before the season ends (there are roughly 45 points for a CL win in one game at this point for example)

I've never seen a ranking ever that everyone agrees with so I know I'm there to be shot at but here goes:
(They are over three seasons slightly weighted to the more recent years)

%

SPA Real Madrid 1691 100
ENG Man United 1421 83.99
ITA AC Milan 1380 81.60
SPA Barcelona 1360 80.42
SPA Deportivo 1348 79.72
SPA Valencia 1329 78.58
ENG Arsenal 1303 77.03
ITA Juventus 1265 74.77
ITA Inter 1105 65.34
POR FC Porto 1029 60.81
ENG Chelsea 1020 60.28
ENG Liverpool 1006 59.46
GER Bayern Munchen 996 58.89
ITA AS Roma 985 58.25
ENG Newcastle 921 54.46
GER Borussia 860 50.84
GER Stuttgart 859 50.76
GRE Panathinaikos 851 50.32
SCO Glasgow Celtic 845 49.96
FRA Lyon 843 49.84
ITA Lazio 826 48.82
SPA Real Sociedad 818 48.36
SPA Celta Vigo 817 48.33
HOL PSV Eindhoven 767 45.33
SPA Malaga 747 44.18
SPA Real Betis 745 44.07
HOL Ajax Amsterdam 744 43.98
GER Leverkusen 742 43.89
ITA Parma 730 43.14
SPA Mallorca 704 41.64
SPA Villarreal 690 40.78
SPA Athletic Bilbao 682 40.31
GRE Olympiakos 670 39.63
GER Werder Bremen 659 38.96
GER Schalke 04 657 38.83
FRA Bordeaux 645 38.13
FRA Monaco 639 37.78
SPA Sevilla 619 36.58
SPA Osasuna 618 36.55
HOL Feyenoord 618 36.54
GRE AEK Athens 613 36.26
SPA Atletico Madrid 612 36.18
FRA Auxerre 612 36.16
CZE Sparta Prague 609 36.00
BEL Club Brugge 607 35.90
BEL Anderlecht 606 35.83
TUR Besiktas 597 35.32
GER Hertha Berlin 589 34.82
GRE PAOK Saloniki 586 34.63
TUR Galatasaray 586 34.62

It was easy to get a domestic points total and a completely separate European total. The difficulty comes when you try to add the two together as there are more games played in a domestic season than in Europe plus one the domestic competition is a league with a guaranteed number of games while Europe is essentially a knockout competition.I had to weight the European games. I tried several solutions but in the end the simplest seem to give the best result which was to multiply the European games by a factor which was (Average number of games played in a domestic season divided by the maximum that could be played in the European competition)