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Author: drussell
Date: 05-12-2003, 03:49

I know I will take abuse for this, again, but it is my humble opinion that cup losers should not qualify for the UEFA Cup, if the cup winner goes to Europe via the Champions League.

Dundee or Livingston will probably go to Europe and I dont think either of them deserves it based only on the fact that they were a cup finalist.

I made the same complaint about Dundee last year, I though Kilmarnock deserved it more. Esp when you consider their head to head record (Dundee went 1-1-1 at home games vs Kilmarnock and lost the only game at Kilmarnock).

I just think finishing 3rd (or 4th in Kilmarnock case) is better than losing the cup final.

Re: Cup Losers
Author: kerrbhoy Date: 05-12-2003, 05:26	There is no European place for the CIS Cup in Scotland. I agree with what you're saying though, 4th place in the league is a better achievment than runners-up in the cup.

Author: Lyonnais
Date: 05-12-2003, 17:19

I agree with you.

Granting a position to the Cup runner-up made sense when the Cup Winners' Cup still existed, but now it does not mean anything anymore.

In France we are used to have quite a lot of teams from lower divisions to represent us in European Cups and I'm a bit fed up with that.
Nimes (D3) was runner-up of the French Cup in 96 and lost (during extra-time) to Auxerre who made the double. They also went to C2 (they were promoted to D2 at the same time).
Then Nice and Strasbourg won recently the French Cup (97 and 2000 I think) while being relegated.
Lorient (D1 but being relegated) and Gueugnon (D2) won the League Cup and also represented us in UEFA Cup while being relegated.
By chance, when Calais (D4!) reached the final in 2001, they lost (at the last minute) to Nantes that was not qualified for the Champions League. Otherwise, I think that it would have been a new record in the European competitions. And that does not make sense.

Author: Nick
Date: 06-12-2003, 14:25

It makes sense! If the runner up in the cup gets nothing the interest in the competition will be much lower. In Bulgaria many clubs regard the Cup as a safehouse where they can eventually compensate for a bad performance in the championship. Usually the Cup Winner is either the champion or one of the teams already qualified for the EuroCups so reaching the final gives you 90% a UEFA Cup place. I remember how the League Cup died a few year ago because the winner got only a UEFA Intertoto Cup place and for that reason no team was really interested in the competition. So everybody played with the reserves and some youth players (even in the semifinals & the final!) and the cup died. Simething similar will happen to the national cup if only the cup winner has ANY chance for a UEFA Cup place.

Author: pollymac
Date: 08-12-2003, 10:51

If only they had stopped the runners-up qualifying back in 1971.

Swipes aside, I think that national cup competitions have been (very much) downgraded. This is largely due to the fact that CL and Uefa cup football has provided more matches for the clubs most likely to reach the latter stages of their respective national cups. The upshot of this is that the national cup loses a lot of its prestige, especially when possibly within a week of the final itself, a local club may playing in a European final.

The loss of the European spot for the finalist (losing one) would further downgrade these competitions in many peoples eyes. At a time when football needs to maintain and indeed heighten local interest, I feel this would be a bad thing.

Unfortunately it does mean that a club could have a shocking league record, play lower division clubs en route to a national final and gain a European spot whilst another has slogged out a respectable league record over 30+ matches only to be told 'sorry, thanks but no thanks'.

Author: porker
Date: 08-12-2003, 15:53

I have mixed feelings over this.
A team that gets to their Cup Final has had a succesful season and duly deserves to be rewarded, chances are on the way they've beaten some decent teams. Equally they may not have performed consistently over the season as some teams have and therefore 'aren't deserving.'
The problem with this sort of thinking is that surely that detracts some of the glory away from Brazil, Germany and Turkey? All of these teams struggled in their 'qualifiyng leagues' yet performed well at the World CUP

As some people have pointed out, taking away this spot might dampen interest in the Cup and I feel that enough attention has already been taken away from domestic competitions as it is.

Re: Cup Losers
Author: aceman Date: 08-12-2003, 17:05	Cup loser to UEFA CUP. This is right.