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Author: hamilton1978
Date: 21-05-2003, 23:37

Well done Fc Porto! very good technical team, they thoroughly deserved to win the UEFA cup by beating lazio 4-1 on the way etc brilliant final Porto, you lot seemed so in control of the whole match

As for Celtic, now you know what its like for the non-old firm teams huh?

Ranger's 3 penalties at Dens Park(Dundee) Would we have gotten them if rangers did it to us? NO, and of course, no wonder rangers got knocked out the 1st of the UEFA cup with a neutral referee :grin

Celtic's 2nd against Dundee 2 last week was blatantly offside but did you get the goal? of course you did!

I love seeing these Scottish Commentators which are Celtic/Rangers fan squirm :grin

:grin

May I congratulate you Porto! well done, thanks for 0.250pts Celtic but a very well done for FC porto whom I was rooting for!!

Author: jpcccc
Date: 22-05-2003, 00:59

As a FC Porto fan, thanks ! I know we deserved to win.

I hope next year FC Porto can also win to Rangers on CL. That would be fair. Winning to Celtic we are now somewhat used to. Let's win Rangers also !

Defeating Celtic was hard because Celtic is a very good team that could also play rugby. They kick and rush to the goal. Sometimes don't stop and, ups, there goes an opponent through the air. Strangely enough, this also fits inside football rules (when a referee allows it) and Celtic scored twice playing that way. It was hard for Porto to play against that on a pitch that was good for rugby (or agriculture). Celtic is a real hard team to play against.

Lazio was easier because they don't play rugby and both home and away pitches were rather smooth. UEFA should look better to the final's pitch selection.

Looking forward to win against Rangers in Glasgow, next year. Please, don't get qualified for UC. It's CL, ok ?

Author: pollymac
Date: 22-05-2003, 09:02

Only saw one hard tackle last night (Balde on Deco). Even then Balde took the ball first and his feet were low (not high as Morinho would have us believe). Porto are a class act and I hope they manage to keep Deco until after Euro 2004 (if he plays well then at least Porto could get 25million for him).

Not very impressed with Derlei at all. The guys a decent enough player, but he must have been rolling about on the pitch for about 10mins out of the whole match.

It was good to see the referee clamping down on such 'gamesmanship' (not).

Even Baia was at it. Barely caught by Laursen he managed to run a couple of steps before realising he had a chance at wasting some time, so he did. He had the audacity to clutch the front of his leg (which had shinguards to protect him).

Classy moment of the night? Maloney beating 3 or 4 defenders on the right side of the penalty area before squeezing in a cross.

Well done Porto, over the whole match I think you just edged it.

Author: Davy+F
Date: 23-05-2003, 22:56

firstly congratulations to the fans of FC Porto who before during and after the game where very friendly and mixed well with the 75-80 thousand Celtic fans. your team can play some very nice attacking football the only pity was that your team let themselves and your clubs reputation down by some of the worst gamesmanship I have ever seen in a cup final. they would probabily still have beat us if they hadn't and I would have rather have cheered your team sportingly rather than boo the way I did but lastly to the Porto fans thanks for a great sporting festival.

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: Garve Date: 24-05-2003, 16:18	I wonder if Derlei now holds the record for the number of times a player has been stretchered off and still finished the game? I think it was 4 times.

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: mzok Date: 24-05-2003, 18:52	Porto's diving was pathetic. Celtic's "physical" play was primitive. The booing of Porto's players as they received the trophy was quite embarrassing. The UEFA Cup is a 2nd rate tournament in every respect. Give me the Italian-dominated CL every day :-)

Author: joaol
Date: 24-05-2003, 20:03

for u mzok. what are u talkin about? italian football? i?ve just seen a fabulous game with italin teams in the champions league this season, juventus- real madrid, what a great game for juventus! i just make a warning for the european biggest clubs...Porto could make a great champions league this past season, i?m a Sporting Club de Portugal( u call it lisbon) fan anda i?ve seen them play best football level, i can garantee u that i have just seen real madrid, manchester united, juventus , barcelona and arsenal play great football as they did...and if they were playing in full power against celtic i can asure you that they would win with a larger resulta, much larger( Costinha injured in the first minutes, Postiga banned, jorge costa injured..and these two injuries with the game running can bring the team down as it did). if they don?te lose too many players they will be a big surprise in next year CL.A very nice surprise, be carefull big countries...

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: joaol Date: 24-05-2003, 20:16	jankauskas was injured too

Author: Frank
Date: 25-05-2003, 00:30

Hamilton,

what a small minded little tosser you are. Strange how you never managed to mention the 5 offside decisions against Celtic each of which was incorrect. As for the 3 penalties against Rangers each decision was correct and the dundee player should have had a red card for the second incident.

To everyone else,

I am just back from Seville and although I am disappointed at our defeat I am very proud of my team not only reaching the final of a European tournament but also of their overall display when even with 10 men they still gave it a go. As for Porto, the general feeling of Celtic fans was that a very talented team that continually resorted to diving was nothing more than cheating and a better referee on the night would have dealt with it more effectively. However, I also accept that had Porto concentrated fully on playing football they may still have won the game but at least they would have been applauded by Celtic fans as they were last year in porto following a 3-0 victory.

I hope for more good games in Europe next season although it will be our last year to see Henrik Larsson playing in Celtic colours.

Author: hamilton1978
Date: 25-05-2003, 02:19

frank ur a complete tosser yourself

oh well celtic got a lot offside decisions(which they never) which weren't offside...well funny how their offside goal was a proper goal huh?

3 penalties all justfied? maybe...do u really think if celtic did it to dundee we would get all 3 penalties?

Why wasn't wilke sent off? well u had better question the referee, cos he was totally inconsistent wasnt he?

You lost to porto and it was thoroughly deserved....i am really embarrassed by the Scottish league, there is so much hatred between the old firm and the rest of scotland.

Rangers have bought loads of players from normal Scottish sides to weaken us and rangers still never play them eg Adamczuk..he was great for Dundee and he signed for rangers and never played a game for them...so much for scottish football!

face it frank u complete tosser, the old firm are a complete DISGRACE to scotland

Celtic, just piss of to Ireland and rangers piss off to england.............dont say without u we would have no revenue.....without u, our league would be more competitive and attract more crowds, and therefore better viewing for television, so we would get better money deals than right now.

Author: Frank
Date: 26-05-2003, 21:52

Scottish football would get better tv deals without the Old Firm - I've not laughed as much for ages. You are either 12 years old or the most naive of football fans I've come across for a long time.

As the late great Jock Stein once said (albeit of the English League when Celtic were one of the top teams in Europe)two 80 year old men running round a football pitch is competitive but it doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

I'm sure someone on here could do the maths. What position would Scotland be in the country rankings without the Old Firm points over the last 5 years - that would be a good starter for a reality check. As for pissing off to Ireland, as a third generation Scot I am used to those bigot like comments at almost every ground around Scotland including Dundee.

Author: hamilton1978
Date: 26-05-2003, 22:24

I was drunk when I wrote that last message, I wasn't happy with the fact you called me a tosser, a grown-up shouldn't need to use vulgar language such as the word "tosser".

I am happy to discuss calmly, and refrain from using such words.

Ok, right I'll start small, you only have to look back at the 80's when the Scottish league was one of the best in the world.

For example Aberdeen winning the cup winners cup and Dundee United reaching the final of the UEFA cup, note that both these teams are outside the old firm.

Why is it so different in the late 90's and 00's? That is what I would like to figure out.

I don't like to think its money, I mean Scotland was just as poor in the 80's as we are now.

There is one obvious difference, is the fact that the Scottish league in the 80's was full of Scottish players but it isn't nowadays. The best thing to do, is to think simple.

The Greek league, eg AEK athens have smaller attendances than Dundee and the like, but AEK were unbeaten in the champions league and reached the 4th round of the UEFA cup which no Scottish team seems to do these days.

Don't say if we had some decent Scottish players they'd all be abroad....that could be the fact for a handful of Scottish players, but I am looking for hundreds of good Scottish players....the only thing we can do and NEED to do is to revert to using Scottish players and stop signing half-rate foreigners(Although Scotland as a whole have signed some excellent foreigners but maybe too many dud foreigners and certainly some scottish players that are just as good as the foreigners but we don't play them.

I believe we are beginning to head towards that direction, Aberdeen, Dunfermline and Motherwell have a lot of Scottish players going through the ranks. I am happy that Jim Duffy(Dundee) has brought through 2 or 3 scottish players this season who look good.

It was interesting that Aberdeen was only just knocked out by Hertha Berlin and Livingston beat Sturm Graz at home although losing 8-6 on aggregate

Hibs lost to AEK 2-0 the year before but won 2-0 at the home game but lost in extra time...we only need the old firm to do well in europe and have the other 2 teams reaching the 2nd and 3rd round to be a more repectful nation.

I hope that next season Hearts will be a seeded team and therefore play an unseeded team in the 1st round, and hopefully progress to the 2nd round thus picking up more co-efficient points. Maybe Hearts will gain more confidence against bigger teams in the 2nd round.

I think its simple....start playing Scottish players who know what Scottish football is about and hopefully we can get back to what we were like in the 80's.

Please no comments degrading this reply...let's respect all our opinions....and don't be pessimistic saying that scottish football is finished.

Be optimistic..come on Celtic and Rangers in the champions league, and come on Hearts and Dundee FC in the UEFA cup, you know you can do it!

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: bert.kassies Date: 27-05-2003, 08:32	hamilton1978 wrote: "please no comments degrading this reply". Who would degrade such a generous posting?

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: hamilton1978 Date: 27-05-2003, 08:54	to Bert...Frante wrote "As the late great Jock Stein once said (albeit of the English League when Celtic were one of the top teams in Europe)two 80 year old men running round a football pitch is competitive but it doesn't necessarily mean it's good." I just hope Frank won't say that my previous reply was a pile of crap.

Author: pollymac
Date: 27-05-2003, 15:07

hamilton1978-

What a great world we would live in if it were that simple.

Scottish teams aint crap becuase they buy crap FOREIGN players. Thats as narrow minded (and also a wee bit racist) as the bigotry spouted by each side of the OF. The fact is that the players we have are quite simply crap, foreign or otherwise. You cant say that OF buy all the decent players and use that as an excuse for other clubs failings.

The OF have always bought other Scottish clubs players and will continue to do so. BTW dont the other clubs have a say as to whether or not these players stay or go?

Couple of seasons ago, Hibs had the chance to sell Kenny Miller to English clubs or to OF, who did they sell out to? Same club, Didier Agathes situation- Raith Rovers player, goes to Hibs, who obviously didn't rate him that highly in the first instance as he got monthly contracts, then walks out as a free agent. Not Celtics fault that Hibs didnt secure atop asset, but still, hey? its 'lets blame Old Firm time' and Celtic have 'stolen' another player.

Just one question on this taking other clubs players. When English/European sides bought the bulk of the Aberdeen side in the 80's was it a conspiracy to ensure that the smaller clubs cant compete? Or was it just the natural progression of a players career?

Its easy to blame the old firm. I think teams should start looking at their own faults. "We're crap" is not something directors or managers will ever admit to, so what do you get "Offside", "Penalty claims" etc. The fact is if you are one of the OF, you do get more attacks, leading to a larger proportion contentious decisions. And as its the OF, the media are on it like a shot (sells more newspapers) thus fuelling the paranoia of the other 10 clubs fans.

Let me put this to you. A 'goal' is scored in Glasgow by a Dundee United player, the ball bounces out, no goal is given. Is there an outcry? Yes. Does it last for months, even years? No.

Why? Because it was against Partick Thistle. Had it been against either of OF, the papers would add fuel to the fire, look back through the archives for other such incidents etc. Lets face it, all teams get contentious decisions going both for and against them. Its just that on a day when Celtic/R**gers get one and another club gets one, who will get the adverse headlines on the back pages? You can bet your mortgage it aint the smaller club.

Also Aberdeen only have Scottish players coming through because of their own failed transfer policies. Even then, they've only ever been potential players for the past 4 years. When will they make the step up to being the full monty? Or will they become the eternal prospect like Eoin Jess, Scott Booth and so many other players we've seen in the past.

Dundee, well we've yet to find out how many Dundee players will make the grade.

Lots of teams in Scotland have good players coming through the ranks. One has to wonder why you mentioned neither of the Old Firm in your plaudits about youth talent? Stephen Crainey, Shaun Maloney, Jamie Smith, Stephen Hughes, Maurice Ross, Bob Malcolm and Allan McGregor. Just some names to remember.
Also Celtic took a clean sweep of the youth competitions (U21's and U18's leagues and the Youth Cup) with players on their books for years, not poached or stolen.

Celtic now have one of the largest youth set-ups in the country with around 600 players involved. Most of these players will not make the grade and some will end up at smaller clubs. When this happens and the smaller clubs still cannot compete with the Old Firm, will it again be the OF's fault for selling/giving away second class players?

Author: hamilton1978
Date: 27-05-2003, 15:54

To Pollymac, I'm gonna write a short message, as I'm gonna go out.

In my big reply I wrote beforehand, I had never actually said ONE thing against the old firm.

I was talking about Scottish football as a whole.

The Old firm will always be the biggest 2 clubs in Scotland.

There are times when you go through a long period of when both Rangers and Celtic dominate the Scottsh League totally. After all Celtic were 4th in the league not so long ago.

Try to remember that I don't neccessarily want outside 10 to go competing with the old firm year in and out, I want Scottish football to be a good league, and have good standards in the whole of Europe.

I want to be able to expect Dundee/Hearts to reach the 3rd-4th round of the UEFA and not lose in the 1st round all the time.

I just want Scotland to become a good nation in europe instead of having every foreign student up here laughing at me and the scottish game.

After all, its the same in most other countries, where you have 2 or 3 teams competing for the league eg Ajax, PSV and Feyenoord for the netherlands.....AEK, PAO and olympiakos for the Greeks and Benfica, FC Porto and S.Lisbon for the portuguese. But these countries still have a smattering of other clubs that go further than round 1 of the UEFA or pick up a few wins the Champions league.

But our teams are always out the 1st of the UEFA cup lately, thats what I want to see changed.

We had the big 5 in the 80s-90s Rangers,Celtic, Hearts, Dundee United and Aberdeen, these teams have held their own(sort of) in Europe eg Hearts in QF in 89.

Aberdeen winners 83,semis 84 QF 86

Dundee united QF 83, SF 84, 3rd rnd 85, final 87, 3rd rnd 88 and so on

These performances above including Celtic and Ranger's may have held Scotland in the top 8 comfortably.

I was hoping we could have maybe 6 teams in our Scottish league right now that could be class as good european teams...but don't neccessarily have to compete with the old firm all the time.

I hope explain myself clearly.

Thanks for reading it anyhow

P.S. some people on the forum have said that if it was just Celtic and Rangers in Europe they would be 5th in the co-efficients. I'm not sure what point they are trying to prove. After all if you pick the top 2 teams of Italy, Spain and England, they would all be top never mind 5th.

Also, bear in mind, that the Scottish teams outside the OF have helped quite a bit regarding to collecting points.

As we are 9th now and have 30pts......If all the Scottish teams outwith the OF had picked up no points at all in the last 5 years, Scotland would be something like 14-15th in the co-efficients.

Author: pollymac
Date: 27-05-2003, 16:47

-hamilton1978

Never really understood that one either (OF points, 5th place) bit silly really.

Juve & Milan, Real & Valencia, ManU & Arsenal, GS & BJK, Feyenoord & Ajax, PAO & AEK, Bayern & Dortmund, Porto & (whisper it) Boavista etc. Fact is, if you took the best two from each country over last 5 years the OF would still struggle to be in top 10.

What these people are pointing at (I think) is that the OFs points have given us a chance of having 6 six teams in Europe (only if both OF and another team perform well in one season).

Picture it, league splits and the 7th placed team after 33 matches has no chance of playing in Europe, how peed off would their fans be then.

Your comments on our smaller teams performances, when compared to similar countries, are spot on. Scotland is a very rich country. Our wages are 3 to 4 times higher than many other countries where much better players are produced. You would think that we could afford to create a decent infrastructure that allows top-class players to be produced on a regular basis.

I'm an optimist and keep thinking year after year that one team is going to do well. Both OF have threatened but never really produced the goods until this season. I hope all the Scottish clubs build on this, if not we can expect to remain around 10th to 12th in Europe.

Author: hamilton1978
Date: 27-05-2003, 17:34

Hi Pollymac....yea I agree with what you have written there.

As for the league splitting yes it's a disgrace if we were to have 6 teams in Europe.

The thing is, I bet you that at the SPL they don't have a clue where we are on the rankings. As you and me do, we know almost everything about it(Thanks to Bert! we appreciate and love your site!), so I wondered if people at my work knew anything about it. So I asked around.

The responses were...

"I never knew we had a ranking table"......

"Scotland are about 26th in the ranking".......

"Scotland have no chance of getting 6 teams, I can't imagine that ever happennig"

"Dundee aren't in europe yet, Rangers need to win the league first according to the newspaper!(disputable maybe)"

"Thats fantasy! Scotland with six teams? OK maybe they are ninth but 30points away from 8th"

I couldn't believe how little they knew about this, and I have no doubt that the SPL don't have a clue about the rankings, therefore they'll think we'll have 4 teams in Europe permenantly and not bother about the league split if we were to have 6 teams qualifying

Yes I have read the arguments of Scotland having 6 teams in Europe, that we won't collect as much points.

But I thought to myself, if we had 4 teams in the UEFA then surely at least 1 would progress to the 2nd round and maybe 2? And hopefully teams that progress to the 2nd round will be much much more confident.

As for Scotland reaching 8th, well I think it will be very difficult as we are something like 3 points behind, but if both the OF qualify for the CL, then who knows?

And 1 last thing, They way the CL has changed...less games...I think that is also much better(in Scotland's case anyway) because if Celtic and Rangers qualify from the group stages (if they were in it), then great, we would have picked up so many points along the way and not much games left.

If Celtic/Rangers both fail to qualify from the group then its no so bad because the teams left in it won't have so many more points to pick up unlike last season's CL.

Does it make sense?

Mark

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: hamilton1978 Date: 27-05-2003, 17:39	Another note...I hope Hearts are seeded in the first round...maybe they get drawn against an easier team and we'll finally have a non-OF team in the 2nd round for years!!!

Author: pollymac
Date: 27-05-2003, 19:53

Its certain the Scottish team in qualifiers will be seeded. As to the first round, I think we can safely say Dundee won't be, whereas Hearts may be.

Whatever, I hope to see 4 Scottish teams picking up points after the 1st round.

Both Celtic & Rangers should be aiming to get past 1st round in CL (as both are seeded for qualifiers we can hope they'll get there). Depending on the results of qualifiers (incl. Lazio, GS, Dortmund & Chelsea) Celtic might even be in pot 2.

Hopefully we'll get a favourable draw for the Uefa Cup 1st round. Hearts v Anorthosis & Dundee v (don't know AS Roma?) should see both teams through with relative ease.

As of the start of the season we drop from 9th to 11th (I think). It is possible for Scottish clubs to quickly gain ground on the closest countries with points possibly gained during the qualifying rounds and possible bonus points for OF getting to CL.

Author: flob
Date: 27-05-2003, 20:41

this is how Scotland will start this season:

99/00 00/01 01/02 02/03 Sum
...
7.Greece 5,416 6,750 11,250 7,166 30,582
8.Netherlands 6,250 6,083 10,166 6,166 28,665
9.Turkey 7,750 7,750 5,625 4,666 25,791
10.Czech Rep. 8,000 6,000 5,500 6,200 25,700
11.Scotland 5,125 5,625 6,625 7,375 24,750
12.Belgium 3,250 7,000 5,875 6,875 23,000
...

I think 8th place is a bit utopic, the goal should be to collect as many points as possible (esp. more than Turkey and Czech) to secure 9th place and then maybe next year ...

in any case, good luck

flob

Author: pollymac
Date: 28-05-2003, 09:24

flob-

yeh it does look highly unlikely for us to get 8th next season. What I'm hoping is that we don't screw up the extra 2 points (above our usual 5.5) that we got this season. If we maintain a steady level of about 7 or 8 points we will eventually get there. The fact that Celtic & R**gers pick up most of the points is a pain in the neck.

As stated previously, we could pick up a fair amount of points in the qualifiers (10 in total- 8 wins & 2 bonus). This would immediately give us 2.5 for the country before the end of August. After that we'd be looking for points in the CL and Dundee & Hearts to get past the 1st round (minimum of 2 points each - another 1 point for the country).

It does sound a bit utopic as you say, however thats partly what football is about - hopes and dreams.

Re: FC Porto has won the UEFA cup, Fabulous!
Author: Frank Date: 28-05-2003, 23:20	Hamilton, in the spirit of your earlier post I apologise for the "tosser" outburst but I was angry at your gloating over Celtic's defeat.

Author: nucleargoat
Date: 29-05-2003, 10:18

Very interesting debate. Considering that Scotland achieved 7.35 co-efficient points this year without Rangers doing well at all, it definitely is possible with both Rangers & Celtic being seeded teams in the CL qualifiers that both teams can gain good points this year.

With the possibility of a Scottish team ( Hearts ) being seeded in the early rounds I think Scotland are in a good position to pick up more points next season in Europe. This has always been a problem for the teams outside the old firm that they have never been seeded in the early rounds. Therefore more likely to go out of the competition early. This gains hardly any points meaning the next time they get in Europe they are likely to be unseeded again.

I think there will be a change to that as we start to find some of our Scottish teams ( Not OF ) being seeded in the early rounds with a chance to gain some points. This will help year on year. I myself am getting more optimistic about Scottish club sides doing better in years to come.

Author: yogibhoy
Date: 29-05-2003, 23:18

Did not read all the nonsense posted though I do agree with Frank and his quote of the Legendary Mr Stein.

Now: Thought for the day, or question to Hammy Hamilton of Hamilton?

Now Scotland is full of crappy foreigners? Would you agree with me in saying that the Scottish national side is probably the best team of "Scotsmen" we as a nation can muster? Yes?
Well I do not want any of them pulling on "The Hoops", if you get my drift. Possibly only Naysmith, McFadden and Lambert are the only ones I want in Hoops. Give me "crappy foreigners" like Larsson and Moravcik, anyday.

I thank You, and any Sevillians and Oportoans??? who may read this as you helped us have the best party in the world this year.

Shalke Arena 2004 here we go!!!!

Author: hamilton1978
Date: 29-05-2003, 23:43

to yogibhoy......quick message i am off to bed

By crappy foreigners, I am not talking about the old firm, i am talking about Scotland in general....the old firm can afford good foreigners and indeed Celtic have signed excellent foreign players.

But please there is more to Scotland than Celtic...Dundee have bought players like, den bieman, van eijs and i could go on forever, these were CRAP players...but we now have a load of good foreigners cos of bonetti

i will say Scotland in general in the past 10-15 years have bought lots of MINGING foreigners, and putting Scottish players on the dole unneccessarily........get my drift?

Author: pollymac
Date: 30-05-2003, 10:57

'crap' foreigners (non-scots) at CP taking money for nothing-

Wayne Biggins, Stuart Slater, Rafael 'Crap', Regi Stinker, Tony Cascarino and Rudi Vata (not too bad, but still didn't do much).

'crap' Scottish players at CP - First team squad during the early 90's with the exception of McStay, Collins and Boyd. This includes Nicholas, McAvennie and Coyne who were offside more often than not.

Dodgy players at the Zoo - All of them especially Sally McC**st and Dracula Wilkins.