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master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: rainman
Date: 08-10-2002, 16:45
Which team is group-winner and which is runner-up?
(it is last season?s group B, 2nd group stage; only the results of matchday 6 are changed)

Liverpool - Barcelona 1:3
Galatasaray - Roma 1:1

Barcelona - Galatasaray 2:2
Roma - Liverpool 0:0

Barcelona - Roma 1:1
Liverpool - Galatasaray 0:0

Galatasaray - Liverpool 1:1
Roma - Barcelona 3:0

Barcelona - Liverpool 0:0
Roma - Galatasaray 1:1

Galatasaray - Barcelona 2:2
Liverpool - Roma 6:2

In my opinion Liverpool ist group-winner and Barcelona is runner-up. But I?m not sure.

Who can help me?

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: krdeluxe
Date: 08-10-2002, 17:08
First you look at the total points:
LIV 6-7
BAR 6-7
ROM 6-7
GAL 6-6
Then the results against team(s) with the same amount of points and then the goaldifference against team(s) with the same amount of points and then most goals against team(s) with the same amount of points:
1. LIV 4-5 goaldifference +2 (7-5)
2. ROM 4-5 goaldifference -1 (6-7)
3. BAR 4-5 goaldifference -1 (4-5)

Roma scored more goals against Liverpool and Barcelona then Barcelona against Liverpool and Roma. I hope you understand it?!

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: saviola7
Date: 08-10-2002, 21:39
good question,

I think the pots themselves are drawn up specifically to AVOID this type of scenario. I can't find out any regulations on how pots are drawn up for the SECOND groups stage. I don't think its necessarily based on coefficients...

I know this is fun to do, but one thing I have found is that things always work out. Real Madrid and Barcelona have never played on the same day (not same group.. but same day of the week).. there is no regulations that I can find supporting this.. but thats they way it has happened.

Just use a few general rules. (not necessarily in order of importance) 1) teams from the same country will be kept apart 2) teams wont meet teams from their previous group 3) teams that won their group, will not face a group winner. With those rules.. you can get a good idea of some possible matchups.. but its too hard for the 2nd stage.. but its VERY possible to figure out the knockout matchups.. atleast it was last year.

It will be interesting to see if 4 spanish teams can make it all the way.. then at least we know 1 team in each of the 2nd round groups.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: saviola7
Date: 08-10-2002, 21:40
oops .. wrong thread

Re: krdeluxe
Author: rainman
Date: 09-10-2002, 09:05
Thank you for your answer. My friends gave me the same answer.

But I?m still believing, that Barcelona would have been runner-up. Let me explain:

Liverpool, Roma and Barcelona have 7 points.

"If in the group stages of the Champions League two or more teams finish equal on points after all the group matches have been played, the following criteria are applied to determine the group rankings:"

1. Higher number of points obtained in the matches between the teams in question

Liverpool 5, Barcelona 5, Roma 5

2. Superior goal difference from the matches between the teams in question

Liverpool +2, Barcelona -1, Roma -1
==> Liverpool is group-winner

3. Higher number of goals scored away from home in the matches between the teams in question

(NOT HIGHER NUMBER OF GOALS, BUT GOALS SCORED AWAY FROM HOME!!)

Barcelona 3, Roma 3

4. Superior goal difference from all group matches played

Barcelona -1, Roma -1

5. Higher number of goals scored

(??: from all group matches played, not only from between the teams in question)

Barcelona 8, Roma 8

6. Coefficient points accumulated by the club in question, as well as its association, over the previous five seasons

Barcelona 108,605, Roma 68,119
==> Barcelona is runner-up

What do you think about it?

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: ahmet
Date: 09-10-2002, 13:16
krdeluxe is right in ranking. I can calculate this very easily using the standings table formulated for me by WiSK on excel. By the way, thank you again WiSK.
If he agrees I can mail a copy to anyone interested.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: spinoza
Date: 09-10-2002, 14:17
I think Rainman is correct. According to the rules cited in the press kits. Maybe this is a bug in Wisk's program?

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: Tomer
Date: 09-10-2002, 14:47
I also think rainman is right in this issue. He followed the exact rules that UEFA published regarding the issue (and the total number of goals are indeed regarding all games & not just the teams in question).

However, what I believe should have been done (even though it's more complicated) is that after separating some of the teams in question (in this case Liverpool), the other rankings should be according to the results of the teams in question (in this case Rome & Barcelona) & the 3rd team results should not be relevant anymore. It seems more fair & clear this way.
What do you think ?

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: ahmet
Date: 10-10-2002, 00:39
Spinoza, if you read the posts carefully you will see that both krdeluxe and rainmain say the same thing. So does WiSK's model. We all agree.

Tomer, if more than two teams has equal points, no team will be separated until all criteria are applied. It will always be three teams in this case. Check Juve - Galatasaray case a few years ago.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: rainman
Date: 10-10-2002, 09:00
There is a difference, ahmet.

In my opinion Barcelona is runner-up, in krdeluxe?s opinion (=WiSK?s program?) it is Roma.

rainman

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: Tomer
Date: 10-10-2002, 09:21
Ahmet, what I meant is that a team can be separated if after applying one of the rules in order it has different number of points/goal difference/ etc. e.g. Liverpool has goal difference of +2 vs. -1 for the 2 other teams. This is when we can take Liverpool out & ranking her 1st. Now taking barcelona & Rome & starting all over from the first rule only between the 2 teams (without considering Liverpool results). The team with the better results from the games between the 2 will be ranked 2nd.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: ahmet
Date: 10-10-2002, 09:30
Spinoza and rainman, Sorry I was the one who did not lok at it carefully in the middel of the night. In krdeluxe's post I thought his ranking was that bit at the first glance:
"LIV 6-7
BAR 6-7
ROM 6-7
GAL 6-6"
but his ranking was below. That's why I thought rainmain had the same result. WiSK's model works perfectly.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: ahmet
Date: 10-10-2002, 10:03
Tomer, I understand what you mean but it does not work that way. The rules are defined as "in the matces between the teams in question". In this case 3 teams and 6 matches are evaluated at once. It is not gradual and 2 by 2 comparison is never made. Ýt is like preparing a new standings table ignoring the fourth team.

Another case I mentioned was in 98/99

Bilbao-Rosenborg 1-1
Rosenborg-Bilbao 2-1
Juve-Gala 2-2
Gala-Juve 1-1
Gala-Bilbao 2-1
Bilbao-Gala 1-0
Rosenborg-Juve 1-1
Juve-Rosenborg 2-0
Rosenborg-Gala 3-0
Gala-Rosenborg 3-0
Bilbao-Juve 0-0
Juve-Bilbao 1-1

The result was:

Juve 8
Gala 8
Rosenborg 8
Bilbao 6

Because Juve had more points in 6 matches between 3 teams.

In 2 by 2:
gala was ahead of juve (away goal), ahead of Rosenborg (overall goal differance). Juve was ahead of Rosenborg by points. Rosenborg was behind against both teams.

The worst part is only the group leader advanced to second stage in that year. We Gala fans were very very disappointed. I remember, I raised the same issue by that time. After long discussions Bert convinced me.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: Tomer
Date: 10-10-2002, 10:20
Ahmet, what I mean is take all the 6 matches of the 3 teams & do the calculation exactly as UEFA states. The difference is ONLY AFTER a team is separated from the other teams. take for example the LIV/ROM/BAR results from the start of the thread, I'll still look at all the games & get to the same number of points to all 3 teams, then we'll check the goal difference & see that Liverpool has +2 & the other two teams has -1. THIS IS the stage where I'll split Liverpool because we managed to put it 1st due to its goal differece, but we still have the 2 other teams to split. What I'll do next is start all over again ONLY REGARDING THE 2 TEAMS. this means NOW let's look at the relevant 2 games,& in this case Rome will be 2nd because it has 4 points from the 2 games while Barcelona has only 1 point from the 2 games. This will put Rome 2nd & Barce 3rd.
What I generally mean is that the whole set of rules came to distinguish between teams with same number of points & this is good, but after the first rule that will distinguish at least one team from the others (for better or worse), we should do the calculation all over again for the teams that were left in question & not considering anymore the team we managed to split.

In your example it will not be relevant as after considering the 6 games we managed to split all 3 teams by points & we do not need anymore to take 2 teams of the 3 & split among them. They are already split to 6,5 & 4 points.

I hope this clarifies my method.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: WiSK
Date: 10-10-2002, 12:27
Tomer, I think we all understand your method, but it remains that it is not the same as the method used by UEFA.

Ahmet, I am quite happy for you to send on my Excel spreadsheet to anyone who expresses an interest.

Re: master question about ranking (group stage)
Author: krdeluxe
Date: 10-10-2002, 14:37
Rainman, you are probably right that Barcelona is runner-up and Roma is third, following the six criteria. I thought that the goaldiffence (point 2) was not only goals made minus goals conceded, but also the number of goals made (in this case 6 for Roma and 4 for Barcelona). Now I think it is only goals made minus goals conceded (Barcelona -1 and Roma -1), because if goals made would count, France and Bulgaria would both go to the quarter finals in Euro '96 if they had played their last game 2-2 in staid of 3-1 for France.

ESP-BUL 1-1
FRA-ROM 1-0
ESP-FRA 1-1
BUL-ROM 1-0
ESP-ROM 2-1
FRA-BUL 2-2 in staid of 3-1

FRA 3-5 (4-3)
BUL 3-5 (4-3)
ESP 3-5 (4-3)
ROM 3-0 (1-4)

Results FRA, ESP, BUL:
FRA 2-2 (3-3)
BUL 2-2 (3-3)
ESP 2-2 (2-2)
Before I thought FRA and BUL would go through, but now I don't know??